Episode 8 - Are We Teaching CrossFit Wrong to Beginners?

 

So before we start, since today we're talking about what to teach new people to fitness, we're gonna play a little game called, would you teach this on day one? All right.

So, you know, just yes or no, no nuance.

I don't wanna buy a mechanics lecture, just your raw unfiltered instinct.

All right, day one with the new person, West Piot, would you teach the air squat? Yeah.

All right, Blair.

Yes, there we go.

All right, what about the deadlift? Maybe with the PVC, barbell, whatever, kettlebell, would you teach the deadlift on day one, West? Yes.

Blair? Yes.

Well, running form, or people are coming here, they're heel striking, like they're trying to, stop, curb, stop the earth.

Would you teach running form on day one, West? I wouldn't be playing, but if I had somebody who run a lot, I could give them that cue before they go back out and run again, then yeah, I teach them on day one.

Blair, is that something you do day one with people? Teach how to run? Probably not.

Probably not.

I guess if somebody's a horrible technical runner, they probably hate everything about running.

And trying to like educate them on running, they might not come back, they think, oh, we must do a lot of running here.

Yeah, for sure.

For sure.

Yeah.

Here, yeah, welcome to something you hate.

All right, rowing techniques.

West, you do rowing technique on day one? Hmm.

Blair? Yeah, I would teach rowing on day one.

Man, I usually, when rowing, the first time I get them on the row where I just haven't played the fish game.

And then, and then that's it.

That's it.

I said, I'm not going to teach you technique.

I just want you to like play on this thing and like see what it's like to pull the chain a little.

And then the next time we actually talk about some like form and techniques.

All right.

PVC thruster, you do the PVC thruster on day one, West? Blair? Yeah, definitely.

All right, gymnastics kit.

West, you teach gymnastics kit on day one? If it's appropriate for the person, yeah.

I said no nuance, yes or no? Oh, I'll say no.

All right, Blair.

You're saying like a kip swing on a pull up bar? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, OK.

What about virtual shoveling? West, you do virtual shoveling on day one? Never.

I will never teach it.

Go shovel outside.

That's right.

It's real, real shoveling on day one.

Real, real shoveling? You guys ever do the workouts with virtual shoveling? Dude, Phil used to program that shit all the time.

And every time I was like, God dang it.

It's hard.

I did it.

I did it.

I did it once in a competition.

It was in Denmark.

And it was part of the competition.

I can't remember what the rest of the workout was.

But I mean, it was hard.

Well, that makes sense because I did it when I was following when I first started CrossFit.

I did 100 days of main site, right? But that was like, oh, I'm going to try this thing out.

And how do you try it? You got to really, and that was in the workout one day.

And I remember it was so hard.

Yeah.

You're so hard.

And it's also ridiculous.

All right.

Two-for-one wallballs.

West, you teach in two-for-one wallballs on day one.

See someone just take it to the face or no? Oh, no.

No, Blair.

No, we're going to pass on the two-for-one wallballs.

Oh, dear.

That's one of my favorite CrossFit movements that we almost never do.

It's my favorite movement to coach in class.

Because when people get it, you see this light bulb go off, and they enjoy it.

And then everybody else is just like just getting hit.

Yeah.

You had to have the bandage ready.

All right.

What about the classic CrossFit movement here West, the butterfly GHD set up? No.

I didn't even know that was the thing.

Yeah.

What is that? I made it up.

I made it up.

Oh, okay.

I was like, yeah, it's getting out of hand.

All right.

Roku and talking about the day one things people hate.

I know a guy.

I'll tell you it was Charlie.

He said that what he was like, I learned from this.

He's like, what I used to do with new people, they'd come and come try a class.

And then he said he would just smoke them.

And when they're laying on the floor, just completely obliterated.

Can't breathe.

He'd look over and go, man, that was terrible.

You look, you're must be really out of shape.

You need this.

You said it was highly effective or it wasn't.

And anyway, then he got some more experience, learned, moved on from that.

But I remember thinking, did you imagine? Have you ever heard Austin Begeving story with Jason Kleepa and the 100 GHC sit-ups? No.

Oh my God.

So they used to work in a global gym together back in the day.

And they started doing CrossFit.

So they started making all their P.T.

clients do CrossFit.

And they had this old guy, he's probably in 70s.

One day come in, main site, 100 GHC sit-ups.

They're like, we're doing 100 GHC sit-ups.

And this 70 year old dude did 100 GHC sit-ups with probably the worst form ever.

Back in the day, he walks back in the next day.

And they're all standing there and they're like waiting for him to come in.

And he sees them and he turns around and walks the other direction.

He's like, never again, am I going to ever be with you guys.

Lost the CrossFit or for life.

He's never trying to get in.

I think those that he was all bent over too.

He was like, blocking the oaks, he was so sore.

And like, man, absolutely horrible.

That's impressive, dude.

100 GHC sit-ups.

That's tough.

Yeah, I do it so funny.

Because like, no, I forgot.

It was Jason that did it actually.

And because Austin came around the corner and saw this guy doing, and Justin's like, oh, Jason's all 100 for time.

But I'm proud of himself.

Yeah.

I'm sure I did something like that too back in the day.

Oh, there I am.

I know it.

I mean, I love Jason, but he must have been a terrible personal trainer.

Just all effort.

Smoke you every time.

It's the live and learn thing.

You know what I mean? I guess there's something there for sure.

Wes, what's the last workout you did? Deadlifts.

5533111.

There you go.

What'd you get to? 415.

Oh, man, don't wait.

Oh, yeah, thanks for saying that, man.

Because I don't really bad about that.

It's really fun.

Well, dude, I don't care what movement you're doing.

You feeling up with double body weight on the bar? Like how nice, pretty good.

You know what I mean? Yeah.

You know, what about Blair? What's the last workout you did? That's today we did.

It was a 30 minute e-mom.

The first 15 minutes, one snatch, the second 15 minutes, one clean.

And the goal is to never take weight off the bar.

Is that how that goes? No, the one was just built to a heavy on each.

So I got to 215 on the snatch and 275 on the clean.

There you go.

So not quite a adult weight, but 15 bro is legit.

Yeah, 215 is pretty good.

And so just like I said, you know, double body weight, but I think we need to talk about the snatch.

You know, we've says one other time in this show, but as long as you're snatched, if you're snatching over body weight, then you know what you're doing.

Like nobody just grabs a bar and snatches their body weight if they don't know what's going on.

You know? Yeah.

It's goal one.

We did a yesterday, the classwork out was fun.

It was a 30 burpees, row 600 meters, 30 burpees for time.

Ouch.

It was, I loved it.

It also fucked me up.

I was like, I'm still being messed up.

Yeah, one of our coaches, the I was going to like kind of like go through the motions a little bit else.

And then one of our coaches did a class before me.

So I was like, who's going to do under six minutes? Anyone going to break five minutes? Like I'd be like really painful.

Anyway, and she had like five 30 or five 25.

And I was like, God, now I got it.

I feel like I got to try.

And anyway, yeah, it was like 511.

And it, dude, it hurt.

It was a, I didn't want to do it.

The last 11 burpees, I just didn't want to do.

And then like at that point, like you're kind of, you're in it.

Like there's no slowing down, you know? Well, it's tricky because you think you can sprint it.

So you try to sprint it, but it's definitely too long to hold like your max pace.

To what if it was like 30 to 50, 30? Then you could sprint it.

Or to 30 to 50, 15, even that would be awful.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Well, the 600 meter row was, was not great because it was 100 meters longer than you're used to like sitting down for, you know? Just holding on for dear life.

Yeah.

Anyway, highly encourage you for looking for something to do that's going to take you, you know, six minutes and have you coughing for the rest of the day, you know? I feel like those workouts got progressively worse as we went on.

All right, with me today, two guys who have onboarded more crossfitters than Rogue has shipped barbells.

We have Blair Morrison, a three times CrossFit Games athlete, affiliate owner, the Norclow classic mastermind, and the best CrossFit athlete who actively tries not to work out inside of a gym.

Also, we have Westpite CrossFit Redshirt Games athlete, affiliate owner, coach of coaches and the man who's on ramp begins with a deep conversation about living in the space between stimulus and response.

Your first homework is mindfulness.

We'll do squats later.

And I'm Danny Lear from Caffin and Kilo's Gem owner, coffee dealer and your friendly moderator who's going to ask for your opinion and then tell you why it's wrong.

OK, one more little lightning round here to know how you think.

What is the best, the best, since we talked about day one movements, what is the best day one movement? Deadlift or push up, Blair, you go first this time.

The best day one movement.

Yep, deadlift or push up? Oh, deadlift for sure.

West, deadlift.

No one needs to know how to do push ups.

Interesting.

All right.

People get off the ground.

I guess they picked up up a lot.

All right.

Most annoying.

Well, it's not about that.

It's because a deadlift is a way sexier movement.

You want somebody to get involved and be excited.

You can teach them all these things about a deadlift with a PVC pipe.

And then I mean, that's, you see how way more legs.

Interested.

I immediately go to emergency response.

I'm like, I need you to be able to pick up something off the ground if it's hurt.

It's like, needs to be moved.

Yeah.

And they'll be you to carry me.

Yeah.

Also deadlift, you can use something like a kettlebell or whatever weight.

And if they don't, if they've not used to doing things with weights, they're like, feel like they're doing something, like they're running an implement.

Push up, I will say push ups though, is you do, you take something they think they know how to do and you explain to them that they're doing it entirely wrong.

You teach them a new way, right? The problem is that sometimes that feels worse until you get used to it.

I guess.

Oh, yeah.

Worst first or most annoying first day question.

My doctor said I shouldn't squat that low or if I get too bulky, can I stop? Blair, what's more annoying? The bulky one.

All right, Wes.

I think the doctor one, because I just get mad when doctors are idiots.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, the bulky one's not a problem, because he's just like, yeah, fair enough.

Because like, it's not, it's not going to happen.

So, are would you rather coach someone who's never been to a coach class or someone who did CrossFit eight years ago for six months at a gym that taught faster, is always better and treated range of motion like a suggestion? The person that's never been to class before.

Wes? Yeah, same, but the other one sounds fun to work with.

Yeah, if they get it, you know what I mean? Yeah, they're able to put the ego away and it'd be fun.

All right, so now that we've established moral compasses, let's move on.

So CrossFit has the nine, right? The Holy nine, the nine movements, HQ decided in 2001 where the foundation of functional fitness forever.

You know, we have the squat, front squat overhead squat, press, push press, push jerk, deadlift, sumo deadlift, high pull, which catches a ton of hate and the Medball Clean.

Are these really the best movements for beginners? Or are we teaching people how to do Medball Clean before they know how to hinge, plank, row, run? So here's the real question.

What should be in an honoramp of new people? Is it the nine movements? Is it the real life stuff picking things up? Is it, or is just the nine, or is the nine just CrossFit's version of algebra, foundational, important, but useless unless you don't know how to count to 10 first? So big picture, are they the most important things that when new people need to know? Do the nine fundamental movements still represent what a beginner needs to understand when first starting CrossFit? So Wes, talk about those nine fundamental movements.

Are they relevant, or are they just legacy things that we use because it's what we've always done? No, totally relevant.

They help somebody go from being either not functional and what we mean by that is not able to wake your way through daily life to you being functional by learning those movements.

You can go from not being able to take something from your ground to overhead to being able to do that and knowing how to do it safely.

And that's my opinion.

The most important thing that we do.

What do you think, Blair? Those nine movements, are those still the core of everything that we do, or do you think they're maybe a little outdated? I mean, I think most of them are good, but I think there's redundancy in there.

And then if I were, when I'd, well, I mean, I think you can categorize the squat, the three different squats as that's a squat category and then you have the deadlift kind of as like your engine category and all the overhead stuff as your pressing category.

But there's nothing on there where people are hanging from something, right? Which I think is fundamental.

So I like to incorporate that when we do on-ramp is something either they're either doing a ring row or they're doing dead hangs on a pull-up bar, but they have some sort of grip and like hanging, supporting their body weight.

And that kind of leads towards a pull-up.

I like the way CrossFit teaches the progressions, especially the pressing one, the press push, press, push jerk.

I mean, we use that all the time.

I think it's just absolute gold.

But we rarely use sumo high pulls except in fight gone bad.

So I would not call that like a fundamental, like foundational instead, a foundational movement.

There's other things that I think you could teach to basically get yourself to do cleans.

I like the burglar clean progression better.

So if we're gonna go into the Med Ball Clean or the sumo high pull as kind of ways to build that movement pattern in, like the quarter extremity movement pattern, I would lean more towards the burglar progression.

You know, the jump shrug, high pull, also clean, power clean.

And then the last thing I think is missing is, I think there should be some sort of mobility, like discussion with your en-ramp.

So I like the, what do you call them, the corn-eye? What do they call them? Yeah, it's the nine fundamental movements, right? Yeah, so I, like I said, I like the squat as a category, dead as a category, presses a category, then something hanging and then something about range of motion.

I mean, not range of motion, but mobility, like addressing injury.

You know what I mean? It's like people come in with latent stuff, sore stuff, like a spend a day or an hour dedicated to, like, well, how do we basically address this so you feel a little bit better? You mentioned hanging early on, like I was one of the first things you said.

So if you look at that pyramid of movements, gymnastics is below weightlifting, I believe, like more of a base structure than weightlifting within that.

So, you know, Wes, how do you feel about that as far as, you know, are we just kind of off base here, even trying to compare them or say one thing's more less important? Or do we think that oftentimes new people should maybe have spent a little more time on the gymnastics stuff, you know, body weight stuff before getting into those nine fundamental movements? Do we just do the nine fundamental, I guess my question is, do we just do the nine fundamental movements early with people because we want to get a barbell in their hands and that feels good? Or would we be better served by working some more hanging movements in gymnastics first? I think the answer is yes to all of it.

It depends on the person that you're working with.

The way that we do our onwards here is that we don't go through the nine foundational movements and teach them because they're not going to remember any of that stuff.

Honestly, like, they might remember a couple of things here that we actually use our on-rope as a diagnostic tool.

We're looking for imbalances and we're looking for their lifestyle choices and we're getting in bodies and we're actually just kind of creating key metrics to start with so that we can look back on and be like, look at the progress you've made.

Your head tilt when you first started, it was like this and you were kind of hot.

You can now look at you when I took a picture of you, you're more upright and look at your hips they're more in balance.

So we do that.

And I think that the idea behind gymnastics, go back to your actual question of like, hey, gymnastics and then weight lifting.

Yeah, you got to be able to move your body through space before I expect you to move an external object and your body through space.

Like show me that you can hit, you have proprioception, you know where your knees are and you know where your elbows are.

Before I have you try to lift something that could end up injuring you at some point.

You know what I mean? That's hyperbole because we'd start with a PVC pipe and something so light that they wouldn't get injured.

But yeah, I think it is important to have gymnastics before weight lifting and I think that the found nine foundational movements do really set you up for success.

But I hear what Blair's saying about the hanging stuff which I think is important, which is why at the level one we do teach the kick move pull up in the hang and stuff.

But it's just not part of the nine foundational movements.

It's a progression that's kind of over here and we're saying like, look, it is still important but these are still our foundational movements that we can teach with just the PVC pipe or a broomstick.

You don't even need a pull up bar or anything to hang from.

So I get the theory behind it all and the why behind it all for sure.

But I definitely still agree with everything that you guys are saying.

Like, yeah, let's get that in there and let's get that in there.

It's all good.

So what we do for our on ramps is we do go over those nine movements but we don't do them all in one session.

Right? And so we actually break it up honestly over three sessions.

It's like, okay, so day one we do the first one of all of them.

Like I'll do an air squat, a deadlift and a stretch press.

And then we do some ring rows or some hanging.

Right? And we kind of do a few other things.

And then it's like day two we'll do, you know, quick review of the air squat and then we'll do a front squat.

And then we'll quick review of the deadlift and we'll do a simuladol of hypo, you know, and so on.

And then we'll add in some kettlebell swings and some box jumps and play the fish came on the rower.

Right? Just kind of touch base on most of the things that they're going to do.

So when they show up to, you know, when they go to a regular class, it's like, oh, I'm familiar with these types of things, whatever, right? Cool.

I go, man, you were talking about the simuladol of hypo, I've gone to circles about it.

I just kind of landed on, we don't do it very often in workouts and stuff.

But I do think it's good for teaching the whole court of extremity idea, right? And I think that that's really, you talk about these nine fundamental movements.

I think their biggest benefit is sure the movements themselves, but it's about being able to teach the principles, right? And so I do little like lessons.

I'm like, hey, look, like we've got, like day one, I'm like, we got principles in here, right? And like these are, these are the rules.

And like one of them is court of extremity.

What does that mean? And kind of explain what it means.

And then I'm like, all right, now we're going to do an air squat.

Make sure we're going to brace, we're going to brace first before we do it, right? Like brace from midline.

And then we do that and then everything we do, I just bring it up and I'm like, oh, hey, look, court of extremity.

Wanna make sure you do this? Another thing we talk about is full range of motion.

Everything we do, we're trying, we're striving for full range of motion, right? And so then everything we're doing, is like, how low do you go? Well, as low as you can go, maintaining a tight midline.

And you know, like sets the whole thing, is it right? It's like as far as you can, while everything else is correct.

And we just kind of hammer those home.

If you had to delete one movement of those nine, which one goes? I know Blair said, sumo high pull, so west, what about you? If you had to rip one of those nine out, which one would it be? Ooh.

Definitely not the air squat.

The deadlift or the press, I would keep those.

I like the push jerk because it teaches them to pull underneath an object.

So maybe that get rid of the push press.

Because I could teach that in another way.

I don't know, man, that's a tough one.

Because I really like the sumo deadlift high pull.

I think it actually like, like when I was in the military, I'm a firefighter, I use the sumo deadlift high pull all the time to get stuff onto things and to like move things and to con for a deal.

So I really think it is very beneficial.

I would probably get rid of the med ball clue.

Yeah.

And I would keep the sumo deadlift high pull for the quarter extremity principle patterns and knowing how to use those and go through a four range of motion.

And I think you could transfer that into a muscle clue and which could turn into a clueless.

And you kind of, you know, could use the med ball clue as more of a specialized thing for people that really shouldn't be maybe touching a barbell, you know? Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm not sure that the med ball clean is the best way to teach people change a direction their hips and how to do a clean.

But what I am sure is it is a damn good exercise.

You know what I mean? Like they're hard, man, like it's, they're fun and workouts.

Little smoke you.

That is for sure.

So like do those belong in the nine, I'm not sure if those belong in the nine movements just as far as like the other ones you see the clear progression, like teach a squat.

Okay, I see a front squat other than a back squat because that's going to apply to so many other things, you know, a clean and just, you know, there's other things involved that have to be having a front rack position, right? It's really more about teaching the front rack position than anything.

And though, right, so overhead squat kind of same deal.

But then yeah, when you get into like the med ball clean I'm just like, I just don't know.

It's great exercise.

But like I could teach, I think teaching a hang clean, like a hang squat clean with a barbell or whatever, or a PVC.

I probably get more out of that than like a med ball clean, right? Yeah, and like at the level one we teach the PVC pipe snatch, right? Then we go through kind of like a version of the Bergner progression but there's a couple of pieces taken out.

We could do the same with the PVC pipe there too and just like, hey, just move your grip in, right? Yeah.

Blegg, are you here in West okay? Sometimes it's kind of like pop in a little bit for me.

I don't know if this is just a my end.

No, I hear him.

Right.

Straight through.

And the recording of it too is all three are recorded and individually and so it should be, it shouldn't be a problem then just make sure.

All right.

Okay, so what do we think about that idea actually brought it up on accident early? Is with those movements and with these on our, are we teaching principles disguised as movements? More than we're worrying about the actual movements.

Do we think that's maybe a big part of this? Or is it really more, it's more not that complicated? Really it's like, not man, you should be able to press a barbell and you need to, any need to know how to squat.

Blair, what are your thoughts on that? Is it more of the principles or is it like not like don't, don't ever think a man like nah, you need to be able to do these things? I mean, I think the principles are, are in there.

I think they choose the movements because they're quarter extremity and they're like very common and functional, right? That's like the CrossFit bedrock.

Yeah.

But I don't think coaches, coach the principles deliberately.

I think the principles are kind of like imbued in the movements and so they're going to be like referred too later on like, hey, the quarter share me like what we see with the, you know, with your push for us, you dip and drive and your hips go first and then the bar moves.

I do think most coaches are, are and should be working on the movement pattern because that's what the person is going to understand.

I think sometimes we can geek out on the like the philosophy of stuff, right? And the ideology of stuff.

But for your average new member that's going through on ramp, they need to be able to focus and kind of later on reflect on what they felt.

What was, what were the movements I was doing? Like how did it feel? Why did it work? What did I learn and not get two in the weeds on the, on the other stuff? Yeah.

West got anything out there.

Oh, there it is.

Yeah, that meter.

That's exactly it.

What, what do beginners struggle with the most? West, what, what are beginners struggle with the most and they come in and just get started? Oh, man.

Depends on the person.

I think what I see most of the time is like mobility restrictions, not being able to get into a position that's actually safe because they're just too tight, sitting in a chair too much, driving too much, all that kind of stuff.

And so it's kind of having an angle in which one, which, which joint do you see is the most glued typically? QLs and so as.

Oh, I think.

Eagles.

Eagles.

Let me see their man.

Eagles.

No, crappy.

An ankle.

And do you tell someone to squat nine out of 10 times in my experience anyway? And this is hyperbole probably, but like whatever more often than not, I think if someone can't get below parallel and maintain a midline, like a natural curvature of the spine, it's usually not their hips.

A lot of times I find it's because their ankles are so tight, their knees just like don't, they can't keep their heels down and get their knees forward.

Like their shins are just vertical.

It's like, it holds your shins vertical and try and do a squat.

Like it's hard, you know, they mean they got to get real wide.

And that's.

I agree with that.

I would say we always say that the gateway to a perfect squat is the ankle joint, right? Because you just give somebody a heel lift and all of a sudden most of those people can do a really good looking squat.

But I will say that I'm always, I'm surprised by how many people that I think can't squat all of a sudden drop down into like a really good looking squat.

People that are untrained, you know, they don't have muscle restricting them.

I find it like a lot of people that can't squat are the ones that are actually pretty active.

Like they run a lot, but their calves are super tight or, you know, they're type A and they, yeah, they sit in a desk all the time, but they also like do leg press or something.

And they just don't have like the tissue is tight.

But I definitely see, I feel like it's in general for me the one I see the most is something involving, involving the hip.

Like people think they're like their back is tight.

They got chronic back soreness, but it's their, this they're so as, you know, because they sit in like, and so then you don't really, I don't know, you don't see it right away.

That's a tough one because you don't always see it.

You hear about what they feel and then you have a leg lay on this ball.

Unless they tell you that they used to, they're like a runner and usually run 10 miles a day and ran marathon.

So I'm like, oh, it's your hip flexors can be so damn tight.

We're not going to be able to maintain the midline in a squat for about two years.

But you could do it.

This is going to take some work, you know.

What's the most underrated beginner skill as a bracing, you know, hinge mechanics, you know, something or maybe in the actual workouts at pacing, do everyone just go out too hard if you want to consider that a skill, you know, in general, Wes, what's the most underrated beginner skill that you, it's like if I could get every beginner in here and get them to get those one thing down pat and that'll set them, set them up for success.

Well, that one thing be leap the nutrition.

We're not going to exercise here.

No one gives a shit about that.

If I could, I feel like I just want to inject the zone diet and some good sleep in India.

That would be awesome.

But, yeah, I think it's the, I want to hear a playhouse say about this actually because I'm on the fence.

I, I am like I just said it.

I'm so stoked when I see somebody that just walks in and knows how to squat.

Like it's like it's intuitive to them.

Their body mechanics work right because I feel like squatting transfers the best to all of the quote unquote dangerous stuff that CrossFit does.

So if somebody has like a good mechanical squat to begin with and you don't have to like fight it, that makes me really happy.

So I would go with that.

I'll, I'll jump into while you're still thinking about it, Wes, is a bracing.

Like, if, if I can get someone to understand how to like brace their midline before they do other stuff, then that makes everything better, right? As far as like overhead because if they fly real, they're like, hey, and they know like pull the ribs down before they squat.

I feel safe for loading like putting a barbell on their back.

If I know that they're going to brace their midline, you know, same thing even in whatever, like jumping pull ups, I would like them to, you know, have a little lowering slowly.

I'd like them to have some sort of a, you know, if not a full on like hollow position have some sort of midline stability instead of just flopping all over.

If I get someone to learn how to brace their midline early on or if someone can do it early on, that makes a huge difference.

That made me just think of something like how cool is it when you get somebody who walks in who's a total beginner but has like 10 years of gymnastics like back pocket.

Yeah.

I did gymnastics as a kid.

I'm like, yeah, they jump up on the bar and like, whoa, how? And it's funny.

It's not even like as older.

They're like, oh, yeah, like I stopped when I was nine, but I did it from like three years old till nine.

I'm like, oh, you're going to be just fine.

That's that's a, that will be a close second for me.

That's a good one too.

Yeah.

All right.

What do you think now? Yeah, I was on the fence between like a squat or a quarter extremity movement pattern was actually because I know like what you said midline, but if you think a quarter extremity movement pattern starts with midline, right? And then it kind of radiates out from there.

And so I was like, that's, but that's also nuanced.

I think I would go with what probably with Blair said with like, if I get somebody that walks in and they could just drop into a four range of motion, deep and balanced squat, I'm like, oh, we can do some stuff here.

This is going to be fun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It does make you worry about a lot less.

Yeah.

That happened.

Okay.

Exactly.

Yeah.

They can get in any position.

I'm going to need them to get into.

I don't have to worry about that.

But you see I'm walking with that vertical shin immature squat and you're like, okay, we're going to have to like you said, be really careful with a lot of other movements here and stuff.

So yeah, totally right.

Yeah.

How much fitness literacy do people need before a hand of a barbell? Or is it like here, take this, I'll take it from here.

I don't know.

I don't know if they need a lot of fitness literacy because I think sometimes people that are scared of the bar are easier to coach, you know, but it's the people that think they know what they're doing, but actually don't.

So I'm not, I guess those people are also illiterate.

So that's yeah.

Man, I don't know.

That's a good question.

I tend towards I like people having an empty bar on their hand, a PVC pipe or an empty bar because I like the idea that they can feel accomplished and that we can teach them something on the first day.

I guess I would say if it's long as it's empty, they don't need any literacy.

But as soon as it starts getting loaded, then we might have a problem.

And it feels cool.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, I'm not against using a PVC pipe at times for certain things, but it's like they come in day one and they spend whatever 45 minutes and it's all body weight in a PVC pipe.

You know, you know, you learn some stuff and maybe you got real tired at one point, but you know, you're looking around.

There's barbells, all sorts of other stuff going on.

Get your hands on that steel.

I think there's something to do that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that it's about more reps, right? Like when I was a first responder in the military, it was like, we need to get this thing in your hands and have you use it so that you get better on it.

And yes, it's scary at first.

But of course, it's only going to be scary if you don't go towards it.

So I think that yeah, we got to get in their homes.

I think comfort level of the coach has something to do with this as well.

I know personally, like if I'm teaching someone to snap or clean, like, I don't want a PVC anywhere near me.

I guess just it's, I feel like it's more difficult because there's no feedback, right? The front rack position, people really struggle in the front rack position with the PVC pipe.

And sometimes if you can, you know, you do some mobility, like you're talking about Wes, get their shoulders loosened up because usually it's not the wrist.

Everyone thinks to their mom, I wrist hurt.

It's like, well, no, it's because your elbows aren't high enough.

It's like, your wrist, your wrist hurt because your wrist angle is shit because your elbows are down because your shoulders are, are shit.

Right? So it's like, let's address the shoulders and your lats and get your elbows up and your wrists are fine, right? Yeah, I, if it's snatch cleaning jerk, I want an empty bar, even if it's like the 15 pound training bar, you know, whatever, they could, yeah, they get the, the feedback from it.

If it floats away from them, they really feel that because it starts pulling them around.

I find it's actually easier to teach snatch cleaning jerk with a barbell than PVC.

No, that's a really good point.

You know, the, the idea of jumping or extending the hips against the PVC pipe is really hard.

People don't get it right.

But once they have the bar and there's a little bit of weight on them, now they can, their arms can hang straight and it works better.

So I think that's a good call.

Which arguably is one of the benefits of teaching the Medball clean as one of the foundational movements is you have something light in your hands.

You can really feel like the extension, right, before going underneath it, I guess.

But again, I would say you could do the same thing to barbell, right? Like that's kind of the full circle there.

When, where do running, rowing carries fall, right? Like we've been talking a lot about barbell stuff, talking a little bit about like positioning, bracing, you know, gymnastics type stuff.

Where do we fall on the running, rowing, that type of stuff? Because I feel as though lately we've been spending a lot more time on things like running and rowing technique because we really kind of shifted back to just doing one workout and like teaching more, having more time in class to go over progressions and technique on these kind of other things.

But I feel like a lot of times that's, that's not the way it goes.

We've been guilty in the past of this ourselves.

Like, hey, there's running in the workout.

You almost like don't even talk about it, right? Like it's like, hey, let's worry about these other two or three things.

Say, yeah, and then you go run 400 come back in and do some other stuff, right? So is there a time or is it maybe not that big of a deal? You know, just the rowing running, is that all kind of they'll figure it out over the time as they go? Or is that something they think people should spend a little more time on earlier on? Wes, you can go first.

If you don't teach them, they're not going to know.

Let me see, you got to teach them.

We got to know.

But I think if they don't know, how they're going to know, you got to let them know.

I think the running and the carrying stuff is really important to teach them because I think that like they're going to go and hang out with friends and you want to run or jog or they're going to go play with their kids or they're going to do whatever.

And like that's going to happen a lot more often.

And I think carrying is so good for you to learn how to carry different objects and different positions and to also learn that there's like certain degrees that you can go outside of a neutral midline and actually still be safe and how to do that and stuff.

I think growing is actually really easy to teach.

You know, you could get somebody on there and you're like, push and pull.

Okay, now relax.

Okay, now do it again.

If they have some proprioception, they usually get it pretty quick.

But I have seen the people that on the rowers like, you're like, what is happening here? Why can't you get this? You know, like, and that's more my fault as a coach of not having a better cue or a better way to still this down in the way that they understand that it is their fault, right? I would put emphasis on the running and the carrying over the rowing.

Also, I feel like, honestly, like people talk about injuries and stuff.

I mean, running's got to be like the worst thing for people as far as like getting hurt and just whatever like ankles, knees, and if you're doing your heel striking, it's like all the pounding, you know, especially people that are overweight.

They're in their trying to lose weight doing this thing.

Yeah, sometimes I'm talking about you see all the time you look at people running on sidewalks, like 300 pounds.

And I'm like, that's three to five times your body weight.

The vibrational force is going through you every step that you're taking.

Do you tell them the old and your window and tell them, hey, that's three to five times.

A vibrational force.

Mid foot, mid foot.

Yeah, it's really, but running is hard on you.

Like I went through a phase where I was going to do ultra marathons is what I wanted to get into in the way from CrossFit a little bit.

And I was more beat up than I ever was competing and working out like five hours a day.

Like I felt awful when I was putting in miles on the pavement.

It was hard on my body.

Yeah, totally.

I love it when people row and the rowers start.

So like, you know, the end of the workout, that's like a full mat further back than when it started.

And I'm like, what in your technique is making this run? Like you're actually in a boat.

Like you're crossing the sea with this thing, you know, it's like there's lean back and just drive through their feet and just jerks.

You know what I mean? Oh, man, man, my wife does it.

Well, it's just taught.

I'm not saying anything.

You know, she's not Michael.

I'm like, bud, you got to fix that.

And he's like, no, but the word neighbors is like, I'm not getting on her bad side.

I'll say it once if she isn't doing it.

That's fine.

It's like it's safe.

It's not dangerous.

All right.

Well, now let's get into the kind of the business side of things.

Culture, you know, does your on-ramp match or gym? Do I'm guessing over those firsts.

Like do you have a on-ramp program or someone wants to sign up? Use Get him in a class.

Let's rock and roll.

Wes, what's your, what's your route on that at Coast Range Crossfit? Depends on the person if they have experience and they're pretty coachable and they're moving well and they don't want to do an on-ramp, then we'll coach them through classes that's totally fine.

But if they're new and we usually allow them to do a couple of free classes, you know, and so we get an idea of how they move when we talk to the other coaches.

And if they're not moving well, we'll actually tell them that they need to do an on-ramp.

And then we take them through like a three-day assessment, basically.

So with with those, do you, so do you do those as personal training or do you have special on-ramp classes? For that and how many sessions on average do or is there a set number of sessions they get? Yeah, it's three sessions and it's done on whatever coach and their schedule we can make fit.

Yep.

Blair, what does that look like with you? Well, we've done this a couple of different ways over the years.

Originally we did like weekend on-ramps where we try to get anybody who is new to come up on a weekend.

That did not work very well because schedule is for best.

Then we made, I created a secondary class at like 6.30 a.m.

and 6.30 p.m.

Monday through Friday.

That was like the on-ramp hours.

So if you were new, you would show up at those one of those two times and you would do this five, this sequential sequence, like five in a row.

Or if you missed one, you come pick it up the next week and you would get through squat, dead press, pull up mobility, stuff like that.

And then most recently, this is probably maybe five years ago, we shifted to basically offering a a foundations class at every hour of the day.

So we have two workouts programmed at the gym.

There's one that's like our CrossFit workout and then we have one that's a foundations workout.

So that somebody knew could roll straight in and do kind of like an on-ramps style workout where the skill is always like the one of the base movements.

So they're learning that and then the workouts always something body weight, low skill, running carries, like that kind of stuff.

And that's been working really well because we never have to tell anybody no, but there's also somewhere for the coach to put them on a day like today where it's like, all right, we're doing one run max snatch, one run max clean and jerk.

Somebody walks in for the first time.

Like actually, you're going to do the foundations class, which is, you know, step ups, ring rows, yeah, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is.

So that's what we do now.

It's nice and it doubles for us as like another option for people in our regular classes.

Like, you know what? Actually, I want to do the foundations workout today because that's I'm feeling beat up and this is more my jam type thing.

So that's how we run it.

Yeah.

So one thing that is interesting that the we do that I wish I would have done more of earlier is we do some, we do some one on ones and then we actually send them off to class for two weeks.

And then we come back kind of one more session after the gondah class for two weeks.

And that's kind of like, all right, like what did you do in class? The idea of what the hell's going on or like, or what was hard or, or maybe everything was fine.

Like what do you want to know more about? Yeah, sometimes people come back.

Yeah, that's a good idea.

Actually, we did some cleans.

Those were hard.

Can you just like, can we do more of that? We're like, yep, sounds good for the next hour we do snatch manager.

Or sometimes they'll be like, I really want to work on pull ups.

I knew it's okay.

Great.

And we, you know, so kind of gives them some time to go to class, figure out what is good, bad struggle, whatever.

Anyway, that's just a little wrinkle that we've done that's been kind of a cool, cool thing.

People really enjoy it, you know, also then it keeps the coach a little more accountable to follow.

Have they been going to class for these two weeks, you know, because that's something I do worry about some time to someone doing their on ramps.

Then it's time to go to class.

They're all nervous and, you know, the whole thing.

And so being able to know they're going to meet back up, I think helps.

Yeah, that's clever.

I like that.

Yeah, I really like that.

I mean, I'll implement that actually.

I do think that we'll roll that.

Yeah.

So I think it's it.

So, you know, on ramps look different for every gym.

I think kind of as a big part of culture, you know, whatever works for people, getting them in.

I think the number one thing is getting them comfortable and getting them to go to class.

And, you know, sometimes a little extra help and some movement prep really helps that.

I also think depends on what program you're running.

If you are doing, you know, two pieces in every single class, you don't have a lot of time for progressions and teaching and on ramps going to be a lot more important.

If you're running, you know, kind of more of a one piece, plus maybe some, you know, accessory work.

If there's time left, mobility stuff, you know, I'm not so sure the on ramps are as necessary as maybe a lot of people think they are.

If that's how you run your class and you actually do go through progressions of every single movement, but that's on necessarily reality.

So I think getting people also a lot of people start and that's a question.

Hey, I don't know what I'm doing.

What do you have for beginners? And you can say till you're, you know, running the face or whatever like, oh, don't worry in every class.

We go over everything.

That's not really what people want to hear sometimes, right? Especially they're signing up to this thing that's, you know, not super cheap.

And if they're going to be signed in 12 month contract, knowing that someone's going to, you know, tell them what the hell's going on, I think is beneficial, right? Well, dude, the reality is that not every coach can handle like a brand new person mixed in with a bunch of experienced people.

If the workout is really complex, you know, I have no, no questions that either of you guys could have a class of 15 people, two of which are brand new and you could make sure that they do a snatch and a clean a jerk on day one and be safe.

But it's pretty nice to have like a fallback position for if you don't have your most experienced coach there.

And now, I mean, obviously safety is the, is the, is the number one thing you really don't want someone getting hurt on the first day.

But you also don't want them to feel like overwhelmed on the first day because the coaches, like scattered and like struggling.

Like that's not a good look either.

So, I mean, I think, I think it's really smart for a gym to have a fall, a fallback position that they can, they can just funnel people into something that's going to be very, very comfortable, you know, and kind of not just for them, but for the coach to whoever that is.

Right.

Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of it.

When they do come into class, okay, say it's a busy class, too, you walk in and you've got, you know, it's a class of 18 people and five of them are new and so you have a newer coach and then they got to manage this group.

Right.

And so big part of the on ramp is for the coaches as much as it is as much as it is for the people, right? I mean, it's funny.

The three of us, I'm sure wouldn't really phase light on by me.

Well, you could do, we could have 18 people and half of them have never done anything.

And I feel good about being able to teach that class and getting modifications and helping them out.

But I've been doing this, my entire, this all I've done, right? I've done this for 20 years.

Doesn't it, doesn't it actually dial you up? Oh, yeah, dude.

We just got two drop-ins today that were brand new and we got another one visiting from Montana and it's like, oh, I'm on my stuff.

Let's go.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Oh, that's a whole nother thing.

You get someone who you know does CrossFit somewhere else and they walk in the door.

You're like, I'm going to coach the shit out of this guy.

Like they're going to go back.

I was going to go back right now.

Hopefully.

Dude, these nips are going to be shaken.

You know what I mean? I'm never going to go in.

All right.

Here we go.

It's kind of wrapped things up.

Quick fire.

Rabbit fire at the end.

What is the more overrated beginner movement? Sumo Delta Typula or Medball Clean? West overrated.

Blair.

I mean, are either of them overrated? I know.

Anybody that rates them high.

Like, there's the two things people hate on.

I don't know, man.

I'll say Medball Clean.

Medball Cleanser, man.

You don't think anyone rates them high? I just told you I love.

Okay.

Oh, I know so many people that would rate them very high.

Really? Oh, yeah, for sure.

Definitely.

All right.

I'm around pure.

So I'm around with those seminar staff constantly.

So yeah.

Okay.

So I mean, yeah, seminar staff, they're going to rate them high.

But if you go and like ask the average list off the nine movements, like what are the bottom two for almost everybody out there? They're going to put those two at the bottom, right? Yeah, not because they're bad, but just because the other ones are so great.

I don't admit when I was putting together this episode, I was like, man, I like them all.

Like, you know, I mean, like a little bit of a pureist to a degree, you know, and I've done other stuff and I did the weightlifting and I've been around people who, you know, have other things to say.

But it's like, I just see the benefit, like, sumo high pool.

Like I see the benefit of the court extremity in teaching that.

And I think that's important, you know, and it's like, it's a good way to teach it without the, it's just the opening of the hit.

It's not the opening and the closing of the hit in rapist succession, which is what people get fumbled up on, right? And so it's like, you don't have to worry about a muted hit.

So I just got to open it, you know, anyway, I see the clear, like this leads to this leads to this and the prince.

And even if it's not the specific movement, the principle of what you're teaching is important, you know, my, my, my biggest beef with the sumo high pool is that we don't do anything else with that foot position.

It's extremely functional position, you know, like in life, like what, what West was saying, like how would you get something up onto a high object? That's how you do it.

Or like if you do like a, a stone lift or something like that, we get a wire foot.

But like no other thing with a barbell, do this crossfit, like regularly use that foot position.

So it's like, I think the crazy.

I would be rad to come in.

It's like sumo stance squats.

Yeah.

I mean, that would help, right? Do everything.

I'll give you one more is that so in warm up, sometimes we do that West.

It's like, oh, do some squats.

Okay.

Now why it's sumo stance, do some squats just like narrow, narrow, put your feet together, do a squat, right? The other thing I will say standard wise, they're like, what's the height? Like how high does the body? Like there's not a clear standard.

Like there is in the other movements, right? Is it what's with the bar need to go like how high? Like somewhere between your nipples and other clavicles? Like what is the, like, but yes, somewhere, we think we got a target.

We got it, you know what I mean? Like got a six inch like, it was easy when the bar racks, you know, it's done.

Right.

Or like a pull up.

Your chin was over the bar.

It wasn't a deadlift.

You're standing up or you're not.

Right.

Like the top of a sumo, that high pull, like where's the, you know, one time someone said nipple height and then someone said, well, that change is based on gender and age.

And then what I explain, though, that well, if everyone just lays down, they're all going to be not the same spot.

You know, regardless of age or gender, right? Things are going to go where they go and it's going to be about the same height.

Yeah.

What? And so, you know, but, you know, it's hard to implement that standard in the class as well.

So that's my only beef is there's there.

It's kind of tough on what is exactly the end of the movement, right? Like that's the, that's the thing.

So like, hey, as long as your elbows are above the bar, how high can you get it? It's kind of what we're going for here, right? I'd still rather teach it than a bicep curl or tricep extension or something.

Dude, I don't want, what about time for your logic bullshit? We're trying to find something to pick on, man.

I love it.

Yeah, let's keep taking the eye.

All right.

A biggest issue on day one bad ankles or bad knowledge.

What? Ben's on the person.

No.

Yes.

That's like, player, bad angle.

Like if they're both bad, what's the worst problem to have? Yeah.

Bad knowledge.

Wes? Yeah, bad knowledge.

Yes, definitely.

Man, you guys just don't know how to educate people.

All right.

Makes you bring me back to normal Blair.

Appreciate that.

Marath, harder to fix a marathon runners hip flexors or a desk jockey's concave shoulder girdle.

We did a camp with innovate one time and all of their ultra runners came out and we tried to put them through across it workout.

Oh, it was like, wow, they can't really walk to a quarter depth.

Like how do they drive? Like how do you get into a car? Yes, I just like, yeah, no, it was really, really, really hard actually to coach.

It was a long time ago.

Wasn't that great of a coach, but it was really tough to coach them.

I, I think it's the concave shoulders that are harder to fix.

I just don't know how to fix that.

Like it feels like the spine is like welded into that position.

Yeah, at least the hips like there are some pretty good like stretches and lunging anything getting like the, you know, the one hip extended, like Kelly's always talking about.

I, I mean, they're both really tough.

I just break them.

I'm just putting my back.

Actually, it's funny.

You say that.

So from weightlifting, stretching stuff, because you got to be able to get overhead, you know, for jerks, big, big, determining facts for people.

A really good stretch for that.

That's not real comfortable is you have someone sit on a bench.

Also, you got to get close.

You got to be comfortable with each other.

You have them sit on a bench.

The long ways, right? So they're like sitting on like towards the end, whatever.

And they put their hands behind their head, you know, like they're getting arrested.

Yeah.

And then you just got to come up, you come over the top.

Yeah, I come over the top.

And then your knee, those important part, the bench, your knee, your foot goes behind and your knee goes right between their shoulder blades.

And then you can kind of like pull back their elbows and your knee.

And it's not, I'll tell you what, man, you spend, you hold that on somebody for about two to three minutes.

Their overhead position is drastically different.

Okay.

We did a bunch of that stuff at Power Monkey Camp with Dave Durante and this elastic stuff.

You have you like arms overhead and the puni arms through just like digging your knees into their back.

And you're just like, yeah.

But like literally after like 30 seconds, you come out of that thing, you're like, Oh my God.

Like, that's way better for sure.

Yeah.

It's yeah.

A lot of those fixes aren't, aren't always the most comfortable way to go.

But also, you know, there's, you got to do it regularly, right? Doing once it feels better than, but the next day or probably coming back in the same position, it's going to take, you know, weeks of that to get it.

But it's something that helps kind of break that up and get, get into that a little bit more.

I also, I feel like I see more people that have genetically, like shitty overhead position.

Like it's, it runs in the family, you know, like, arms like a shitty.

Yeah, you're just like, like this is what they got.

And like you like stretch it and their body goes, like it's just locked.

So I don't know.

I'll give you a nature verse nurture on that though.

I think that that's a product of the household they grew up in and the activities that they do or don't participate in.

That they're in that position more so than genetic, right? I don't know, man.

You know when you watch like a kid run, you're like, damn, you run like your mom.

Like the news go the same way.

Like like nobody like that.

She has mom definitely didn't teach him to run that way.

That's true.

My my younger daughter runs just like my wife and you can see it.

You just see it.

It's like imprinted.

Yeah.

That's why we've been, I've been really focused on teaching those two out of fight because if someone's after them, I'm not going to get caught.

You know, turning a facing, they're going to be better off.

You know, it's kind of where that's at.

No one wants to get tackled from behind's heart.

I mean, all right.

Better beginner workout row and air squats or by the way, I'm not now that's twice knives.

That's some of my wife doing something wrong.

She's actually pretty good.

She ain't like exactly great crossbitter.

Anyway, all right.

Everyone's got weakness as we just happened to cover her to the only two she has.

Okay, better beginner work, although she's not going to listen to this.

So I don't know what I'm worried about anyway.

That's true.

Row and air squat or bike and deadlift.

What's the better beginner first day workout? I'd say row and air squat.

Yeah, I'm going to squat bigger than motion.

First thing today, I've all agreed on.

All right.

And true or false, you're not really a crossfitter until you've picked from workout.

False.

False.

Yeah, 100% false.

When's the last time you threw up from workout, Blair? College football.

God, that's, oh, yeah.

I think it was us too.

We went, we did this one other time, huh? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's been a long time.

I avoid it.

Like if I feel it coming on, I just slow down.

I'm like, what are the people back in the days to throw up all the time? I feel like you like bring them in for a workout and they would just be out backpicking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dude, again, back to early days teaching on raps, there's group on ramp and there's workout and it started with like a 200 meter run.

And like it wasn't that tough to work out, but these people, it's the first crossfit workout they've done.

And they just learned some stuff.

And, and we would tell them like, hey, this is, it doesn't look like a lot of reps.

This is going to be harder than you think.

And then someone would be throwing up in the bushes almost almost every time.

You can see it on their face, like the color just like changes.

And they're not, they're not sweating.

Yeah.

Right.

But they're dying and you're like, oh, no, this isn't good.

Your body does not regulate temperature.

If I told you guys about hatch, Gail Hatch, his punishment he would do for his teams, for his weightlifting teams, you know, Gail Hatch as of the Hatch squat, you know, Hatch squat program and stuff.

So Gail's Louisiana is a little bit different, like still hit kids with sticks and stuff like that.

Well, he, he believed in like not talking during training.

Right.

Like, you know, you don't talk.

This is the weightlifting team.

Like we're here to lift weights like shut up grab bar type thing.

Yeah, you would have struggled.

I would not done well.

It was the opposite of Cal strength.

That's like no, just yell more.

And anyway, so sometimes punishment for like talking is he would do what was called bucket eights.

And so they would do sets of eight in the front squat until somebody throws up.

And like so like the entire team like that was it.

All right, but that's it bucket eights and they put on something like 80% of their max or something ridiculous.

And they would do like an eight by eight of front squats at a ridiculously heavy weight, but they never made it to the eight set because someone would always throw out before they got there.

And that is like a special kind of like hurting kids.

Yeah, that's child abuse.

Louisiana, it's all good.

All right.

Blair West, thanks for diving into the wonderful chaos of teaching fresh meat, how to move again.

If you listen to the entire episode and founder itself arguing out loud, congratulations.

You're one of us.

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All right, guys, thanks.

Yeah.