Episode 11 - Enhanced Games: Drug Testing, Moral Theater, and Olympic Fairytales

All right, before we start, let's say there's something up. Every sport has rules, every sport has cheaters, and every sport has a weird unspoken agreement about what we're not supposed to talk about out loud. So let's play a game. You tell me if they're illegal and moral or just inconvenient to admit. All right, ready? Here we go. Loud house music during max out sessions. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Quarter zone shots. Yeah, that's gonna be good. Pain killers on meat day. I usually don't, but that's that can be fine. I guess. What about therapeutic use exemptions? Sure. Sure. That's not real convincing. No, I mean, you need to. I guess you need to be. You know, all right, okay. Yeah, I guess no, it's like a be problem. All right, we're not traveling to a country where the rules are flexible. To train? Yeah. Yeah, that's that's been done before probably, probably not great to do. All right, cool. Now that we've offended at least three governing bodies, let's talk about the enhanced game. Welcome to not my box with me today guy who has lived on every side of this argument. West hits two-time Olympian American record holder, Pan Am champion coach Jim owner. And who man, a man who spent years living under the wear-about system like it was parole. I'm Danny Lear from Caffeine Keelers. Jim owner, coffee dealer, your friendly moderator who's going to ask questions, everyone's afraid to ask and then make it awkward. I've also lived four years under the wear-about system. And it is absolutely like parole. It's terrible. So, what's one of the few people qualified to talk about this? So I'm sending like a Reddit thread. So I'm like a Reddit thread. So little gets north, know you, less. Sorry, Maya. I'm still working on my words. It's six thirty in the morning. I haven't had a quarter an hour and a half, but nobody else my house was. So this is the first time I've had my brains putting things out my mouth instead of just typing. All right, before anyone trusts your opinion less, we need to know how compromised you are. So here we go, lightning round, no explanations, hesitation, counsel's guilt. Have you ever taken something legal that felt illegal? No. Just the house music? I don't know. I mean stem cells, but the song they were magic, I don't think. Have you ever not taken something legal because of the quality of legal? I was told not to take something legal by USA Weightlifting staff. So yeah. What was that? Quarter zone. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I didn't want to mark that from a competition. I was like, yeah, you could you could pop for that. I'm like, yeah, if you take it midnight before you compete, yeah, you could. Yeah. It's true. False. Drug testing rewards compliance, not honesty. True. Yeah, that's probably true. Have you ever trusted a system you knew was broken because it was the only system available? Yeah. Yeah. All right. I know that we've established the level of ethical gymnastics required to survive in a elite sport. Let's get into it. So the thing we all pretend isn't happening. So here's your outing. Elite sports run on three currencies. Performance, compliance, and sometimes silence. For decades, the deal has been, do whatever you want. Just don't get caught. Now the enhanced games come along and say, what are we to stop pretending? No water, no US anti-boping. We're talking about medically supervised enhancement. Centralized camps, doctors, blood work protocols out in the open. So the question isn't, is the shock game the question is, is this more dangerous or just honest? And Wes, you didn't stumble into this. You chose it. Let's start there. So why say yes, Wes? You've already done it, when you've already played by the rules, you've already lived under testing regime. So why say yes now? Was it curiosity, frustration with the system, financial reality, or the simple fact that pretending everyone's clean is exhausting? What brought you to the enhanced games? I would, you know, I would say primarily the just financial reality, right? Like Olympic sports is practically a volunteer job. And it was about to be a volunteer job for me after two Olympics and eight years of competing for USA Weightlifting. A month after the Olympics, they rewrote the stipend protocols. I think I missed it by about 1% on my Olympic total. And they wrote the protocol, the stipend protocol after the Olympics. So they see all the results on the field. They write the standard for the result. And oh, you didn't make it. So you can see there's, you know, there's something a little off there. You know, that's probably not the way that should be done. Thanks since the Olympics had no bearing on the qualifications system. Maybe they could have picked those numbers in advance. So they could have been targeted by the Olympians that wouldn't be able to go to world championships or in those spots. But that's all we're talking about. You know, basically, I got fired from USA Weightlifting. They did ask if I was interested in just training lets and working for money and still competing for them. Which that's all them know. Not willing to not train hard and go step on international stages at the age of the 35. After two Olympics, that was not something I was interested in. But anyways, pretty soon after I retired at Pan Ames and hands reached out, they were taking really good care of the athletes and put up some pretty cool opportunities. And it obviously wasn't something that was anticipating it. You know, sort of had accepted that weightlifting was done. I was playing around on a good team and trying to do what I could at the gym and some online coaching and everything. But, you know, I love competing and I still love training. So when an athlete like that presents itself, it's hard to say no to it, I guess. Take a step back just in case people aren't totally aware of what's going on. So being handstands, I'm going to tell you my take what I think the handstands are and what's going on. And we've had some few conversations. So I think I'm much more important than a lot of people. But I'll kind of give you my take on it. You tell me where I'm right and wrong and in the middle. You just think glass mug, clear glass mug? Yeah, I like it for my espresso coffees because you can see all the little foamy. It reminds me of my cursive vacation with the moose. It's like the moose handler. I'm going to know. So the enhanced games, what's going on essentially is not a secret. I some people are in denial, but in general, I think most people understand that oftentimes in the Olympics, people are compromised. Some, you know, in theory is clean. There is the world anti-doping and every country has their own. Well, often a lot of countries have their own organizations or governing bodies that control the doping within countries. Make sure people aren't taking whatever steroids or whatever they're not supposed to be taking for the sport. However, over time, more and more stories come out to make it obvious. I mean, there is a thing back in Gays with the German teams and Russians and different things like that, then you get the lands arms from. And like that whole thing with, you know, the US Postal Service team and turns out to basically everybody in cycling at the highest level is doing something, those are gives the rules. Some then, if you have not watched the documentary on Netflix Icarus, it's extremely eye-opening just to what, I mean, there's essentially hard evidence that it's not just some athletes were doing. It will talk about state sponsor and country sponsor doping programs. And it goes beyond that, not just the doping programs, but then the cover-ups. So it's not just, you know, oftentimes people think without entails someone doing a bunch of whatever and then getting off at just in time so they pass the test on meat game, whereas that would actually be a better situation than what's actually going on oftentimes. And then people just being juiced the entire time and then doing things like cheating on the tests or swapping, you know, after you test swapping the, the, the, the, the, the, really like, 45, the bottles of urine and different things like that. And just completely getting around the rules. So being in handscans came along and said, you know what, people are doing this anyway, but they have to lie about it. And to certainly send the deal, have to come off a little bit before competition. Also, I mean, arguably people in competition hold back sometimes of what they're actually capable of as not to make it too obvious. So aside from that, I would just slide the 2015 World Championship. I'm late lifting. I saw a guy go one B his late class. I'm gold medal was late class on his second attempt at the cleanger and then put 10 more kilos on the bar, power cleaned it and dropped it and it was just a hundred percent a just letting you know that like this was not a competition, right? Kind of blin and he would like I think on the second attempt, where he won, he set the what he set the world record. You know, he got gold, gold medal world set the world record, but 10 kilos on the bar and then power cleaned it, walked away. And so like that's you know, so I after watching that live, I'm like, well, what are, what is he actually capable of? Like what could he have set this world record at if you know, he wasn't trying to raise more eyebrows than he already did at what with that, you know? I'll post the YouTube video one day. What's that? Yeah, maybe I'll post the YouTube video one day. Maybe one day. Exactly. Sometimes we see that. And his game basically said, well, let's let's cut the ****. Let's have to get to this. Here's the deal. People are capable of doing incredible things and we don't even know. And with today's technology and science is ways to do it relatively safely and the least way to do it is under supervision of doctors who are even monitoring different things. You know, it'll be very bad to talk this up and then something bad happened to somebody because it. So let's get these athletes in certain sports where we know we benefit them. And also what are popular sports to watch in like the Olympics. And also it would just be fun to see people out there ultimate expression of ability, right? And so weightlifting is an obvious one for the, you know, the capabilities that someone might be able to do under. Drug enhancement and then swimming and track and field. I know early two of the other ones just because those are popular to watch and also obviously, you know, sprinters, you know, more juice more faster. And so that's kind of thing. I don't know what other sports there are. I know for sure again, I think there's the sprinters from swimming and weightlifting. Is that it was or is there a sport? I wasn't they also and I don't I don't know what his involvement is going to be with enhanced, but Thorough Bjornson is going to do a deadlift out there as well. So he's going to go for his deadlift world record at the event. So yeah, there it is. And so again, not a tradition, not the Olympics for there, but still a sport where it's just kind of fun. Let's just get the giant person and get him more giant or and see what he can do. Right. So what they're doing is they're taking these athletes. These are all proven athletes. Athletes have been proven at the highest level. So again, we're at West here two time Olympian. And then, you know, there's some other weightlifters that have, I think they've lost even some Olympic medallists. In there, I thought it was on the female side anyway. There might be one or maybe just that world championship world medalist. Lady Celice is one of the ones I think she's got a world championship when I'm not positive. So take some of these swimmers, sprinters, weightlifters. And said, okay, let's do this thing. Let's make it worth their while because after they do this, they'll never be eligible to compete in. So that any sort of, I can use a close legitimate competition again. I think that that'd be frowned upon. So people kind of honestly, in the twilight of their careers, but they've had a lot of success. And let's enhance them. Let's get juiceed up on everything that's going to help them perform better. And then put them on a stage and have them see what they can do compared to the world records. And so that's kind of what's how I do it that, where do I mess it up? What, you know, is that is that a fair take on the enhanced games? Yes, pretty much right. You know, they've been paying attention to what's going on and going up exports. They've, you know, note that athletes are it's hard for them to make it right. They're not getting paid very, very well, even if they do win medals. It's not, you know, four years worth of work that get down right. You know, they've noticed the corruption and the governing bodies. Right. For instance, the German documentary covered IWF taking money to make drug tests disappear. So it was that easy. Like really, you don't even have to be smart or doing, you know, top in. You just have to have an athlete's surgeon. Yeah, you have a little, you have a little cash. You want to spend on your weightlifting team. You can have some tests and do what you want to do. So, you know, and every time they get in trouble, they're exact like their fix. But I think I heard this on one of our calls. But enhanced that the IOC did a poll, pulled all the, the Olympians, they're a lot of the Olympians. And 50% of the Olympians pulled said that they'd used in substances. Just because it was anonymous and I was like, I mean, if I was doing that, I'm going to lie. I'm the anonymous poll. I don't care. I mean, I mean, I mean, that was, I thought that was, I mean, I wouldn't, I don't know. Anyways, it just seemed like a lot. And that's the case. You know, I don't know what sport they pulled or where they even pulled that. But, um, I mean, I don't know. Just in my sport, it's where I'm familiar. Like, you know, it's an issue and the documentary's kind of confirmed what we talk about. Mine closed doors, but yeah, I just like putting it out in the open. Makes it, I think, honestly safer, right? Like we, we have physicians that are going to oversee everything we do. And we, we start this off with the Echo Cardiogram and, uh, and, um, getting our blood tested and like making sure that we're healthy and able to do these things and, um, it's going to be monitored throughout the, throughout the whole process. They're not going to allow us to abuse the drugs either, right? Like, you know, that's, that's part of the deal. That's when you work with a doctor, right? They're not going to let you hurt yourself. But the, the, the ones that will have access to are, they've been around a long time. They're well studied and researched and they pretty well know that the side effects are mitigated when you don't abuse them. So they're, I mean, safety is like first and foremost with a company that's trying to like build a protocol and show a proof of concept with like enhancing athletes and not hurting them. Yeah, three weeks before the event, if one of the athletes goes down to the hard attack, probably not good for the company because this is a big money thing, right? So the enhanced games is going to be in Las Vegas, correct? And they're building out this, this, uh, stage platform venue, I guess you'd call it, that looks pretty dope, right? It is, uh, this is not someone just, uh, toying with the idea like there is a lot of money being thrown around this thing, like it's a major investment for the people involved. Yeah, I mean, uh, I don't know how they're doing it, but anytime you have to put a pool somewhere for an event, it's going to be a big investment. Oh, a big length swimming pool, right? I'm talking about a little like, sun, sun back here. No, and I know they're, uh, not currently the idea of like a big performer, uh, like a music, like it's an artist, uh, coming out. So they're, they're going to make it a, like a showcase more than anything. It's like, it's like WWE for Olympic sports. They want to bring attention to these, these fastest, strongest athletes and like, show people how cool this can be. So I honestly think it's going to be great for the, for the sports. Yeah, especially weightlifting, which sort of flies under the radar, since it's not an NCAA sport, you know, like it can get some people exposed to this and, and maybe, uh, maybe give it a pop like when CrossFit first started, you know, catching off. So they're just, uh, get, take care of everyone, wear the rats, they're flying everyone out somewhere as well. It's like a more money involved and stuff, right? And so what, what does that look like? Yeah, so actually I fly out Friday tomorrow. Yeah. Oh man, what else? So, uh, all the athletes are going to Abu Dhabi for essentially the, from now until the event. So when, you know, when I said that there's going to be oversight on everything we're doing, like that's why we have to be out there is. And then May, correct? Uh, yeah. So we're talking three, three full months, right? So we'll come back, uh, mid May and then we'll be in Vegas for a week and compete. So, um, yeah, I mean, just every, I think there's, maybe 70 or 80 athletes in total. Um, but, uh, you know, there's enough doctors to oversee everybody's protocols and results and how their bodies, you know, reacting to, I think it's going on with their dietitians, the hotels, uh, got a chef that's making us food. I think they'd know everybody's like macros. I mean, our, our gems right in the hotel actually and it's on the beach. I mean, it's, it's, I don't know, it's everything you want is an, is an athlete, uh, got our own door to the hospital who were getting our, uh, protocol administered. I don't, I don't know, it just, it sounds really awesome. And, yeah, we'll see when we get there, how it all goes. All right, I know that they're thoughtful and like, you know, they're putting a lot into this thing. They want it to be successful. So, um, I imagine it, it comes together pretty smooth. So, you know, here's the thing. What, what's going to know both something that might be a little more controversial with it, right? So, you know, I'm not, this is somebody from a, you know, pushing against this idea, right? Someone from a call, you know, you saw it or water, you'll say, wait, lifting, for example. Other questions, so does this coerce athletes financially into enhancement? Or, you know, or is this something that you think athletes would maybe, in the back of my dough, is kind of wanted to do, but, you know, get in or cut in or whatever. Or is this something that, you know, is there, is the financial side of this, something that the media is forcing athletes into doing something they normally wouldn't want to do or wouldn't otherwise do? Yeah, I mean, that's a, it's a good point, you know, is, is enhanced putting money incentives on world records, encouraging athletes to do something they maybe otherwise wouldn't have, or are the NGB's not paying athletes their market value pushing them to find alternative routes? Wishing, I mean, which one is it? Like, I shouldn't have enhanced be held responsible for being willing to pay athletes what's technically their worth. And if USAW is not going to come back and well, we want you to represent us, we'll match that and then some, like, who's, who's actually a fault here, you know, and again, they're not, there's this, you know, there's this big, uh, I guess the drugs are taboo because people get hurt on them, right? Right. These are people that are buying them from, who knows where, right? There's, yeah, they're, they're buying market drugs for one, they're administering them themselves for the most part. Um, they're, they're doing doses that are probably not responsible. And then if you're looking at like, scurrying around drug tests, why are you using these drugs? Now you're using stuff that's maybe not optimal. Masking agents as well, right? Right. So, um, you know, you, you're exposing yourself to a lot more harm if you're like, you know, like, if you wanted to just use testosterone, well, like, oh, they've got to test for that. So I'm going to do, uh, I'm going to do insulin instead or whatever, you know, that's dangerous, right? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's actually more dangerous, right? I mean, how many people are on TRT now, safely, right? And then that was taboo until three years ago when it named it TRK. And now everybody's dad's on steroids, which is, it's fine. And whatever, it makes you feel good. You're getting healthy, like, you know, again, abuse, I think is probably the issue. The, the demons and the dosage is, you know, what I'm hearing, but, uh, let's say that right. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, like, I just, um, I kind of lost where I was headed. Well, I think, I think I, I mean, basically it's kind of funny. My next question is you basically have rolled right into this perfect, because, you know, does medically supervised action mean safe or does document it? And kind of what I'm hearing you say, I think makes a lot of sense, which is, you know, the reason why a lot of these drugs are unsafe is because they're unsupervised and unregulated, right? Whereas there are pharmaceutical grade, you know, whatever, it's a testosterone and that type of stuff. I mean, like you said, if TRT, you know, and there's old Jack dudes all over the place, you know, it's like, did you even, you have to go to a doctor like there's, you just google, like there's how many, how many companies have popped up where it's like going to their website, you know, and then, you know, maybe on it, I haven't done it yet, you know, only 41, give me another 15 years, you know, might be interested. But, you know, the thing is, like, you know, I mean, maybe you do a call with a doctor or maybe you just fill out a form and they review it, right? I mean, it's kind of funny. It's the same thing as like, like, ED drugs, right? Like, Boner Hills, you know, it's like you talk about biagrants, you know, it's like, oh, go talk to your doctor. It's like, now, dude, there's whatever, I know, hymns is a super popular one, right? There's a ton. It's like, you just go on a website, fill out a form and pay your money and like, they'll send you drugs in the mail, you know? And it's the same thing, I mean, same thing with both females too, it's with hers. It's the same thing for like hormone regulation, all that type of thing for females as well, right? And so someone going through whatever menopause, like, you know, you don't necessarily have to make a doctor appointment. It's like, these things have been around for a pretty long time. And we pretty much know that, Cassie, and then you get into dosages, right? Like, so, you know, if you're taking so much testosterone that, you know, you walk up hill and get a bloody nose, that's probably not ideal. However, you know, there, again, it's been around a while, I was pretty documented, but what safe does just be an under medical supervision where they're checking. Do you have any tumors before you begin taking this? Do you, you know, what is your echocardiogram look like? You have, you know, these different problems. And then as they dose you along the way, keep an eye on those things. Okay, what did your blood pressure do as these dosages? And then, you know, kind of taking every step. So, you know, yeah, the medically supervised kind of seems like might mean safe more than just documented, right? Or say, as safe as it can be, I guess, would be a more original safe. Yeah, I mean, if, if it's not safe, I mean, everybody on TNT is in trouble right now. I don't know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, I've been studied for a long time. There, there's not going to be abuse in these cases because they're not going to allow it. It would, it would ruin their company. So, if somebody did. So, like with it, with them having skin in the game, it made me feel really good about it. So, like, I saw the same thing everybody else did right there, Rogan podcast, they had, I don't know which, uh, it felt it was, but basically like he's trying to hype everybody up on it. And a lot of media outlets are, you know, they're called the drug Olympics, right? Like, do whatever you want. Just show up, gear to the gills, whoever, like all takers, like, anything. And it's not, it's not that at all. What it's really. So, what should do that though? You know, kind of like those, like, remember back, uh, whatever 15 years going TV, like the boxing where they're just going to a town and they go all these picks out there and put gloves on and how I'm having, I know like boxing, but these dudes were like getting after it. You know, I'm talking about, I don't think I saw that. Oh, dude, it was great. You know, they just like pull up and, uh, whatever. And then it was come out and let it rip. Anyway, um, so, what happens or could this, could this lead down the path where, you know, where the winning protocol just becomes the baseline expectations? Right? Like, what does that say? Or what does it mean? Um, since that happens, and handscape happens and everything that they, you know, anticipated comes true, meaning, you know, basically every world record gets broken and perhaps buys Nifton, Margin, perhaps, you know, whatever. Um, so then what does that mean for the baseline sports? What does that mean for the Olympics? When now, you know, do we do we go into like a, uh, almost like a two-tier system? Like, oh, that's a world record of an individual doing this under Olympic protocols. Right? Because that brings qualifications into it. Like, what does that mean for the current, the current establishment as far as records and annabilities? Man, it's tough because honestly, whatever, like, I don't know what company has a better model for success, right? And then, you know, what company gets better viewership? What, um, I don't necessarily think that, you know, it's not enhanced gold to compare their athletes to clean athletes, right? It's like, it's to show that their protocols can get you in excess of what's ever been done before. You know what I mean? Like, this is like, I'm not going to end a world record at this event in Vegas and be like, I deserve to hold the world record. Granted, the guy that has it currently, I think, has like a three 50 back squat and a 300 kilo front squat and is, uh, from Kazakhstan. So, you know, maybe someone would maybe, someone maybe assume that he is partake and some of these protocols previously. You could, you could say that. You don't know, you don't know that. You don't know that's the catch you don't know, right? So, so the, the, the kind of leaves me actually to the opposite question, which is what happens if the hash games go down and like, nobody breaks, that I just pretty much like everyone's performance is on par or similar to current world records. Is that will that be like the current political climate where the, uh, anti enhanced games people say, see, uh, people don't need drugs. They just need to work harder and it's possible to do the clean. And then everybody else in the world is going to say, see, everybody in the Olympics is already the girls and what's going on here. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's the reality of a lot of these, especially you're like, I mean, you're best twitch like high strength, high output sports like that. I mean, I mean, even your endurance sports, so there's, they have something right. Right. Right. Right. There's there's ice skaters on the, whatever. Yeah. I don't, I mean, it's just like, you know, I say, what's the here? I don't know anything else. What's he did I say? I'm sure they do. They literally had a little 15 year girl pop. Oh, that's right. I don't think so, but it was. Did they bring me some of these? When Max last pretty, it's just, uh, I'm going to wait. Let's take him back to know what your name is. All right. That would be, uh, I don't know. I'd be, I'd be afraid for the blowback on that probably. No. Both of that. But it's just like, I mean, it's not, I wouldn't expect any of the enhanced games weightlifters to just like blow these numbers out of the water. Right. These historical weightlifting numbers just the way because the ugly truth is that, I mean, it's the dirty sport in the Olympics, right? Like, it's, it's just not going to be realistic to expect us to be like well and excessive, existing records and, you know, like we can likely beat them. And I just thought, I don't know, I don't know how the argument proceeds, right? It'll be an argument. But like, that's, that's part of this reality is that the Olympics is not as clean as they claim. And this is like, this is transparency. Yeah. Like, that's one of the, that makes you wonder, right? So I actually kind of insist that being more, more, more of the reality, I'm going to do believe that there will be world records broken, right? But I don't think it's going to be by a crazy margin. I don't think anyone's going to add 20%, you know, or, or even honestly, I don't think I'm going to add 10% at you, whether in time for a race or in weight, or weightlifting. I believe that most likely there will be some world records broken, but it's going to be largely on the margins, right? And, and I think that that might be open, or another can of worms. I think a lot of people aren't anticipating. I think that, you know, me, you've been in the sport, obviously, you'd have, I love it, in the sport long enough for a while in, you know, weightlifting and around, you know, USA weightlifting and testing protocols and, and seem kind of seen people that I know or that I'm 95% are clean and what their tape glove and knowing that that's about what America's got to offer, right? Oh, this person is winning national championship and representing the United States on international level. And they're all rating under these rules in the United States that are extremely difficult to to start around. Also, anyone who's interested on a little bit more of this that topic is, I'm a little hesitant to promote it, but, um, all right, it's called the sport is steroids and it's about Pat Mendez. And it's, uh, I read it, someone sent it, actually, someone sent it to Dean and he read it, gave it to me, I read it. And it has quite a few quotes for Pat. And he, do you think that Pat is, like, totally involved in this, right? Like, there's like some interview type stuff and I thought that Pat was like, behind this thing, and he involved. So I reach out to him, like, oh, this was pretty interesting. And he's like, oh, yeah, that's, uh, like, like, essentially, um, it's a private conversation in the past, but I think it's fine. Anyway, it's essentially a guy who wrote it kind of like snaked from under him. Like, talked to him about it, brought it up, act like he was going to write it. Pat was going to be involved and get royalties or something and just install it and probably, um, that's why I'm hesitant to talk about it, but, uh, whatever, I'm going to come out and be honest and tell you that part of it too. So then whatever people can make whatever stuff you get. If you read it, just download it legally. Yeah, it's download it. Or just like, no, I don't like what I'm like, you know, that's something good. Yeah. Um, but it's super interesting because it's his entire story. He, you know, outwardly talks about doing steroids and trying to get around the rules, but he talks about why, right? Like, when he started weightlifting, you know, like, why did he, uh, do what he did? Why did he, you know, purposefully, you know, break the rules, get as juice as possible before joining USA weightlifting and then kind of clean up, join USA weightlifting go and then, you know, and he got pop multiple times, come back from a band and he got popped again and he's like, why would somebody do that? And I mean, essentially, you could read it and, you know, knowing the background of the book, trust of it is much, you know, trust it. But my opa personally and, uh, you know, I believe the most stuff on there is largely accurate. Um, I mean, essentially, like, hey, man, this is what people, uh, if you're going to metal in the Olympics by and large, not 100% of the time, but by and large, this is what the medalists are doing. I guess what it is. And if you want to compete and have a chance to beat the best in the world, it's what it takes, right? Um, since then, we have had Americans, um, you know, metal at the Olympics under US testing protocols and everything. And so, take that to what you will. But I think that his take at that time to buy and large, you know, 90% of the time, um, the reality is the gold medalist at the Olympics, if not currently, has a background of doing this type of thing. Um, so anyway, just if anyone's interested in kind of getting it, like, what this actually looks like in reality and if you're not, you know, not real familiar with it, that is kind of a resource that, um, feels the behind the scenes of somebody's thought process to leave them down that path and kind of really kind of brings us what the handscape is doing out. He was, he was trying to do it, do it his own, but on his own and, and uh, got a new body where it's not allowed. But the idea was like, hey, man, like, if we're gonna, if the goals are see what we're gonna do, then this is what this is what other people are doing. Let's see if we can do it too. Yeah, I mean, it was the only path to, to the podium, especially, I mean, that would have been 2012. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're talking about it. So, I mean, testing has gotten better. I love you. I'm under more scrutiny, right? They've been expected to make changes. So part of the changes that they made to qualifications actually has given clean athletes a chance to at least compete in the Olympics more frequently and see a podium or a higher placement of podium. So, um, at that time, it had team qualifying, right? So, you qualified for Olympic spots as a team, the better your team competed in a national team, the more spots you got. So, USAW paired up with Usada was looking at zero spots for a man going into the 2016 Olympic, Olympic trials, right? The women had two or three maybe. But because we drug tested the men for the whole quad, they can't beat the countries that aren't drug testing their men, the whole quad. So, so other countries are taking a giant group, right? I think taking up to 10 athletes maybe was a country with testing protocols taking zero to one. So, essentially, they like incentivized state sponsor doping by doing team qualifications. Now, it's individual. Each country's limited to spots, which they have less spots than their weight categories. So, for instance, China doesn't get the represent in every weight class. So, they can't sweep every weight category. Or, I mean, any country, right? Whoever it is that is excelling in the sport, they're not going to sweep medals anymore. So, there's more opportunity for more athletes. And, you know, it's better than when Pat was competing. But still, I don't know. Yeah, if you were someone sanitized. So, another, you know, uncomfortable one here, for the question about this, it's, you know, probably 19 year old phenol, right? 19 year old phenol asks, like, well, is this what I have to compete? Right? Because water would say that, you know, this isn't choice, it's pressure. And so, you know, where does that, you know, land on the start of thing? Yeah, I mean, I definitely wouldn't suggest that a 19 year old goes on protocols, like for sure, coming into the probably too young. I don't know that the doctors involved with enhanced would want to put 19 year olds on for sure. You know, so, like, that's, I guess, part of the oversight is like there's an age where this is maybe more appropriate than, and, you know, it's kind of like, I don't know, boxing, right? It's sort of like Olympic boxing is sort of like amateur boxing and then professional boxing, right? You sort of, you take the, the breaks off and now you've got a grown man doing whatever it takes. So maybe that's sort of what these other Olympic sports start to look like is the Olympics is like your, you know, your youth competition and then the adults are doing a different game. Well, I mean, that's, that's what, and you know, the Olympics, originally, right? And this has been something's kind of embassurized over the last 20 years in the Olympics anyway, right? You see the amateurs. It was like the amateur thing and pro athletes weren't allowed, right? Basketball and other sports like pro athletes or, you know, we're not allowed to beat new Olympics. And then, you know, I feel like, I don't know if this was the tipping point or whatever, maybe it was not another sports, I said no, but, you know, then it's like, oh, now they're allowing professional athletes to compete. And again, they gave a basketball completely changed, right? Like all of a sudden, like the, the, all of a sudden, the, you know, the playing field and what that sport looks like at the international level just completely changed when you're allowing NBA players to compete in the Olympics, right? So this, maybe is a similar type situation. Right. It's, I mean, no sports already have what develop professional leagues, whereas like weightlifting and IWF is the professional league for weightlifting. So now maybe it just like, it adds another layer that doesn't necessarily mean it's incentivizing the, you know, like the youth to do that and they shouldn't be right. Like even, I mean, these protocols were going on. It's a very short amount of time. It's small doses and it's just for the event and then we get, you know, returned a baseline and set free. You know, like it's, it's very, I mean, it's a very structured regiment. So it's like, I don't think it would encourage, it shouldn't encourage, like people doing this on their own. Like, it's at the end there after the event set back to baseline. And so there is a post event, a wind down period where they then take you off of everything safely and effectively and get you back to back to normal. Which again, talk of the risks of using these things. That's a big part of it, right? Not only people are using the drugs, you know, it responsibly, maybe, you know, again, over over dosage and not under any sort of supervision with regards like their general health at the time. But then also then you got to take other stuff to come off it. And then a lot of times that's where people have the bigger problem or as big of a problem anyway. Yeah. I mean, so just talking with our doctors, we're going to be on such all doses that there should be no side effects. Like what we're hoping for is no side effects. If you have some, we have ways to mitigate that. But basically after the event, we're going to bring you back to Abu Dhabi. Make sure you check out everything is where it's supposed to be. And then we'll, you know, you go home. But if something is out of sorts, we're going to make sure you get back to where you need to be to be healthy and like the way you should. So again, this is stuff that doesn't exist in bodybuilding or some of them. They're not like there's no supervision or protocols for doctors unless they're banned for their own. But those sports, I mean, unless you're the best two or three, like they're probably not making that much. So part of things an interesting example because part of things there is all these different federations, right? There's whatever the USAPL and the USPL, the USPC and all these different things. And some of them are in theory. Some of them are drug tested and some of them are not. Some organizations run both styles and meets. They say, hey, this meat is a tested meat. And then this meat is not tested. And it's they're not overtly saying this meat is juiced up. But when you run tested and the non-tested categories, I mean, that pretty much speaks for itself, right? So, you know, almost to that regard is that, and who knows what you might have some insight what the enhanced game's long-term plan is, but, you know, is this going essentially creating a similar system, right? So I guess, let me back up second. Or I'll let you go there. Is it, do you think it's creating some sort of similar system? So they actually in swimming, right? That's for the first sport that they went for the record day and they got Magnuson, you know, he hit it after his first go at protocols, but they were for doing events, swimming events, and they were going to have tested and open divisions for the swimming events. And they're still an athlete pay advocacy group, perhaps they they want they believe that athletes should be paid with their worth and have a value in that, you know, the people at the top of this Olympic sports pyramid should be the only ones that they earn off this thing, you know, they they can't realize the host country. The athletes are essentially volunteers and then I don't know, I don't know who ends up with all of it. I mean, how much Olympics are coming up, right? And then they're going to be in an L.A. until 20, like, how much are tickets to the Olympics? Like, how much money is going into this event? And the athletes are unpaid by the Olympic body themselves. Where is all that money going? Which is, I mean, you have a little bit of insights as far as the world of the the IWF and the IOC and everything, the, the Olympic Committee and the different sporting bodies. Some would say that it's a quasi-Mafia, the way a lot of stuff works. Well, imagine the endorsements and the ad revenue on the commercials, like the TV deals, like, they're there's some money getting thrown around, but somehow like, not makes it happen. The host countries aren't getting, they're doing bad on these deals. Yeah. Aren't doing good on these deals unless their own or countries take them care of them. So, I don't know, but the pay advocacy was a big part of the enhanced game. So, like, this is, frankly, this is bullshit. These athletes work really hard for virtually nothing and there is money here somewhere, but they shouldn't be expected to volunteer to do these sports. They should be taking care of. So, they did these swimming events, right? They've got open and tested divisions. And the purse on the event was generous, right? They're taking care of these athletes. I don't know if they got paid to compete. I think it was just the prize money was excellent. The International Swimming Federation said that any athlete that competes, even in the tested division for the enhanced event, will be sanctioned. So, what incentive do they have for sanctioning athletes for competing in the clean divisions for money? They don't want competition. It's like there's no excuse for that. You just, you can't let somebody get paid to compete in a competitive federation. So, one pushback for another one to be, the average guy, I'm certain I'm, you know, a young guy, we'll say, right? Not just where. So, I'm a young athlete and I see whatever we'll help wait and think since that's what we're talking about. And I'm like, man, I love this for, I want to compete. I want to get as good as I can. However, I know for a fact now that the people at the absolute top of this game are on steroids are juiced. So, does that make that individual? Does not even care about sport. Like, well, I don't want to do that. Life should I even compete in weightlifting. Should I even do this sport knowing that that's what it takes to be the best in the sport? And I don't, I don't know. So, I want to go out of half, right? Is that something that it's concerned? That is, I mean, it's a, it's a really good point because one of the reasons I got into weightlifting was because it was a tested sport. So, like, I got down to a bond college and I was doing CrossFit, but I really, I like to lift heavy and I just like being in the gym. I didn't really care what, what I did. So, like, you know, I looked at powerlifting and like, okay, bodybuilding, right? Like, and then there's this Olympic weightlifting. So, like, if I'm going to spend all my time in the gym, why not do a sport where I don't have to like necessarily do this thing that, like, I don't have to abuse drugs to be good at it. And that's, I mean, that's truthfully what requires and trust. I mean, it's completely on, it's just, there's no oversight at all. So, they just, there's no limit on it, right? It's more is better. So, that would, that sort of, like, drove me to weightlifting. But I think like, the Olympics should, should continue to try to stay clean and just like for boxing, it should like be, you know, that that could be like the the amateur route and that can still like, people can still aspire to do that. But right now, it's sparring to be an Olympian does not like necessarily secure financial freedom, for sure. Yeah. It doesn't secure fulfillment, right? Like, you just end up making a sacrifice and it feels pretty empty after the experience. I mean, the, the post Olympics, like depression issue is not, like, it's not swept under the rug. Like, people know about it. Like, it's a, it's a real thing. And that's what it is, right? You've built up this huge accomplishment. And, you know, people will tell you what a great accomplishment is, how big it is. But you get there. And I mean, it's, it's not as filling as you would expect, right? The moment's amazing. Like, even like, you know, after the fact, like the, like, it feels good. It's what an accomplishment. But, you know, at some point, you realize that you just got two duffel bags full of clothes that are weird to wear, especially if you're in your thirties. And that's kind of it, you know, like, like as far as what you can do with your time, it's not, you know, it is, it's a more of a sacrifice than anything. And through enhanced, it doesn't necessarily have to be a sacrifice. But, you know, if the, if the IOC paid athletes fairly, does the handstands exist? No. Yeah. So I mean, it's a market correction, right? This guy's as a moral crisis. That's the one way to describe it. Well, I mean, why would anybody go to an organization for less money or for less for a safe, they wouldn't, right? Like it says that's not, if people were incentivized, were financially or otherwise incentivized, I guess not even or otherwise, good more financially incentivized to compete clean, then I think that that's what they'd be doing. I mean, if USAW had a nice salary that was comfortable, I mean, I don't see, I don't see a reason to go to Abu Dhabi for four months. All right. I love the honesty. I think a lot of people appreciate that. You know, we're going to be in a resort on the beach, right? It's not going to, it's going to be awesome. But I love home. You know, you like Knoxville? You like your kids? You like your wife? It's not, it's not, you know, there's not, that's a big, that's a big thing to do. And if I had an opportunity here in Knoxville, right, then it makes it hard to like go spend four months in Abu Dhabi at my age and my situation. But the truth is, as I was effectively fired by USAW for competing in the Olympics and hitting 99% of their standard for funding. Right. Yeah. Four. They had set the standard. So I mean, you know, you want to walk over athletes and treat them like crap. Like this is like, it makes something like what an ass is doing really like attractive. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, is it their fault, is it their fault for putting together a attractive opportunity or should the NGBs be held accountable for not making better opportunities and relying on these athletes to volunteer? Like that, I mean, that's the truth of the matter. It is a volunteer work. And, you know, to be clear on this, I spent a lot of time, I mean, West as well, obviously, two Olympics and everything you say, wait, lifting, this is not, you know, the idea isn't to be just trashing, you know, an organization or whatever, overall, I mean, West the situation is obviously big and talk about, he's being honest about the motivation structure and the reality of it, you know, I mean, definitely, if you lose, we donated a ton of money to say, wait, lifting and directly to athletes and then to you say, wait, lifting as a governing body for years and years and years. And although, the main reason why we stopped, it can contribute to USA wait, lifting when we did was due to the way we got treated at one time, didn't really, didn't go over very well. But again, that wasn't even going to talk about that part. The point is that, you know, the system that we think that that that having these governing bodies is the bad thing or that, you know, the Olympics range and like that, like that's, that's the opposite of the truth. And you're talking to West dedicated 10 years, 10 12 years of life to USA wait, lifting, doing everything that they asked him to do. Again, I did with the root path in kilos, we donated, you know, whatever, tens of thousands of dollars to USA wait, lifting and pursue what we're trying to accomplish there. So anyway, just to kind of go with that. All right, wrap it up here, West. Wrap and fire, you know, quick heads. Here we go. All right. What is more dangerous ignorance or honesty in this situation? Oh, I'm just going to say ignorance because teletruth shouldn't, shouldn't be afraid of it. Yep. Is anti-doping about fairness or optics? Optics. With fans actually stopped watching if they knew everyone was doping. Probably not. I think anybody who pays attention to the world already knows. Is this inevitable? The hands hands inevitable? Under the current structure of the IOC, I think so. Yeah, I agree. All right. Well, that's a wrap. Big thank you to West kids for talking, for walking straight into the fire and being honest about everything going on. This isn't a pro enhanced game episode. This isn't an anti-enhanced game episode. It is a reality episode because whether you like it or not, the system we've been defending for decades only works if everyone keeps lying quietly. And if you listen to this whole thing and call yourself thinking, yeah, but that makes sense. Congratulations. You're one of us. Go buy some coffee from Caffin and Kee-Los. Follow West. Whether you agree with them or not, it's sure to be a wild ride. And send this episode to the coach who still thinks sport is pure if you just believe hard enough. We'll see you next time. Not in my box. Thank you, Danny. Thanks, Wes.