Episode 6 - The Ultimate Strength Progression Debate (ft. Olympian, S&C Coach & Powerlifter)

All right. Before00:05:40.080 we start, let's nail some things down. Since we'll be talking progressions today, let's go around the horn and play00:05:46.639 a little game called what goes first. All right, so no explanations, just00:05:51.759 judgment here. So, what do you put on first when the weight starts getting heavy? Knee sleeves or a weight belt?00:05:58.080 Wes, knee sleeves. Mets, knee sleeves.00:06:03.520 Tom, knee sleeves. Before I walk in my knees before he leaves the bedroom. All right.00:06:09.520 Uh, in the winter you start off, it's cold, you start heating up. What comes off first? The sweatpants or the00:06:16.000 sweatshirts? Wes? Sweatshirt. Sweatshirt comes off first, Coach Mets.00:06:21.840 Wat shirt. Tom, pants. Pants come off first. Winnie the Pooh.00:06:27.360 All right. Now, what comes? What comes first with most athletes?00:06:33.039 Self-respect or self-belief? Wes,00:06:38.800 self-respect. Here we go, Coach Mets. Yeah, I'm gonna agree. Self-respect. Tom, what do you think?00:06:45.440 Uh, I'm gonna go self-belief. Self-belief. All right. And we have uh00:06:50.560 here we go. This one's really important. You're getting ready for training. You're getting going to put on your shoes. Do you go left sock, right, left00:06:59.120 shoe, right shoe? Or do you go left sock, left shoe, right sock, right shoe?00:07:05.840 Wes, sock, sock, shoe, shoe. Sock, sock, shoe, shoe. Mets.00:07:12.400 Yes, same. Who does it the other way? What about you, Tom? You Oh, sock, sock, shoe, shoe. And I always00:07:19.039 start left, too. Always. Yeah, there. All right. Okay. Hey, you never know. All right. I just kind of want to make sure that we're all we're on the same page here. Uh people go00:07:26.560 people are wild. All right. So, now that we've established that uh all of you are mentally stable, uh let's talk00:07:31.919 progressions. So with me today we have Wes Kitz, two-time Olympian, American00:07:37.199 record holder, Panama champion, gym owner, and the guy traveling around the country explaining to CrossFit coaches00:07:43.280 that triple extension is a myth. We have Coach Mets, collegiate strength and00:07:48.479 conditioning coach, NCAA assistant strength coach of the year, national level weightlifter, and the only one on00:07:54.879 this call whose feet dangle sitting on an airplane. And Tom Callus, world record hold world record squatter, elite00:08:02.639 powerlifter, gym owner. He got tired of eating, so he did a bodybuilding show last year and won men's overall00:08:08.639 champion. Also, at some point, we need to have someone on here that lifts more than Wes. So, I grabbed a guy that00:08:14.400 weighs 30 pounds less to help calm down his southern ego. Uh, because Wes, what00:08:19.680 is your heaviest squat? Uh, 295 in kilos.00:08:25.360 All right. What's that in freedom pounds? 650ish. 650ish. All right. Yeah, I think Tom was squatting 650 when00:08:31.680 he was weighing 160 pounds. So, um 711. 7-Eleven at 165.00:08:37.279 7-Eleven and 157. There we go. All right. And I'm Danny Lair from Caffeine Kilos, gym owner, coffee dealer, and00:08:44.240 your friendly moderator who's going to ask for your opinion and then tell you why you're wrong. Okay. Uh a little more00:08:51.760 real quick lightning round. get to know you because if they're going to trust your opinion, they want to know what00:08:57.120 kind of humans they're actually dealing with here. Uh, so we'll go the other way. Tom Kalas, corn, on or off the cob?00:09:03.760 Neither. I hate corn. That's a lie. Oh, Coach M.00:09:08.800 Off. What? Off the cob. Cringed preferably.00:09:16.320 Makes a lot more sense. Uh, roast beef or corned beef. Tom Coll? Roast beef. Coach Mets.00:09:23.680 Corn beef. Corn beef. Yeah, me too. Wes, corn beef. Corn beef. Two. Two verse one there.00:09:29.360 We're getting a weightlifter versus a powerlifter going on pretty strong here. All right. And then is it okay to decorate for00:09:35.200 Christmas before Thanksgiving? Tom thousand%. Yes. Coach Mets?00:09:41.600 No. My Halloween stuff's still up. And Wes, what what do you think?00:09:48.080 I I like the early Christmas. Early Christmas. All right. Yeah. Uh, and uh, here we go. This is the00:09:55.680 important one now. True or false? The best Christmas movie of all time is00:10:00.959 Love Actually, and I swear if any of you say anything about Die Hard, we're ending the show early. Uh, Tom,00:10:06.480 false. Hard false. False. Okay, Coach Mets. False. No. What?00:10:12.240 I've never seen it. You guys see you just don't know anything about Christmas. So, the last00:10:17.279 two questions and just completely irrelevant. Uh, Love Actually is, as matter of fact, the best Christmas movie00:10:23.120 of all time. Okay, now let's talk about progressions. So, what do you teach00:10:28.800 first? That's the question. So, you know, weightlifting, powerlifting, whatever, just general barbell moving00:10:35.760 stuff. Um, there's some things that most people do. They we do some squats, whether that's front squats, overhead00:10:41.200 squats, whatever, some bench press, deadlifting, just the the general big movement patterns. And so when you're00:10:47.120 teaching these movements, what do you teach first? Is it the the front squat or the back squat? Do you teach a hang00:10:53.200 clean or do you teach a power clean first? Do you teach a standing strict press or do you teach a bench press? Do00:10:59.200 you teach a deadlift or a sumo deadlift? I'm just kidding. Nobody should be teaching that. Um, so coaches love to00:11:06.160 pretend there's one right answer, but half the coaches are still teaching things wrong because that's how we learn00:11:12.160 them. It's like you go to your eight-year-old soccer practice and the coach has them getting in a circle and00:11:18.560 stretching for 15 minutes like an eight-year-old's gonna pull a [ __ ] hammy. All right. So, but that's what00:11:24.240 they learned to do. So, that's what they're doing. So, today we've got an Olympian, a strength conditioning coach,00:11:29.839 and a world record powerlifter to settle this once and for all. Let's start the00:11:34.959 foundation, the squat. So, you're teaching someone to squat, and we're going to get some sort of a weighted00:11:40.480 implement in their hands. Uh, what do you teach first? The front squat or the00:11:46.160 back squat? Tom, what do you do when you got somebody and you're teaching them how to squat? And where do you start?00:11:53.120 I start with no bar. I start them facing a wall an inch away, learning to open their hips up, push their knees out,00:11:59.760 drop their hips before they drop their knees so they don't hit the wall. After we progress up to that, we go to the00:12:04.880 back squat. Back squat. So, you don't do any sort of like front squat, overhead squat. Not a beginning. No. Nope. Coach Mets,00:12:11.760 you're teaching someone to squat and eventually they're going to use implements. Um, I know that with a lot of your collegiate athletes, you may not00:12:17.519 do a lot of back squatting, but in general, you're teaching someone to squat. Are you teaching the front squat first, the back squat? What What's your00:12:23.279 order of events here? Uh, I likely go front squat first,00:12:28.480 body weight, body weight at the end of like warm up just to see how they move. Uh, usually we'll go to a goblet squat00:12:35.040 first. Um, weight on the front of the body and then bar on the front of the body before back squat.00:12:40.800 uh goblet squat before bar on the front of the body. Yes. Uh why is that?00:12:46.959 Uh just to see how they handle a little bit of weight while still squatting because that weight's going to be00:12:52.639 anterior on their body. So it's a good transfer over to the bar.00:12:58.079 All right. Uh Wes, what what about you? You're teaching them to squat. What's your order of events? How do you go about that?00:13:03.600 We're probably just going to grab a barbell and get after it. And if there's a problem there, we can backtrack into00:13:09.839 the body weight squat. But um yeah, I'm going to probably grab a barbell at least a 35 or I don't know. I've got one00:13:17.279 that weighs 11 pounds, so we can we can play around there. And you go front squat, back squat,00:13:22.399 where what do you have them do at the bar? I like the back squat first. You don't have to worry about the front rack and00:13:27.760 then uh try the front rack, front squat next. So So you get someone in the gym, they00:13:33.360 don't know what they're doing. You all right, let's go. Let's put this bar in your back and see what you got. Uh, you know, I'm gonna show them how to00:13:39.839 do their hands. Walk under the bar instead of like lift it over their head, you know. We'll we'll we'll go through00:13:45.440 all the pieces. But yeah, bar on the rack. Let's see. Let's uh give a squad a try.00:13:51.440 Hell yeah. See see what they got. Um, so do we think that as far as like00:13:58.320 front squat, back squat, is there one that's safer for beginners then or do you think it doesn't matter, Wes? I mean, you're talking about just getting00:14:04.320 people under a loaded bar in their back or maybe not a loaded bar, but an empty bar in their back. Do you think that that's it's all the same or do you think00:14:10.160 that, you know, potentially like, is that just as safe as teaching someone the front squat first?00:14:16.160 Um, I the back squat is just easier because you don't have to worry about the front rack. A lot of people don't00:14:21.440 have the external rotation out of the box just to like throw their elbows through and hold it in a good spot. So,00:14:27.440 it's easy to get the upper back tight on the back squat. Then, they can maintain pretty good posture through the squat. we can go neutral core bracing from00:14:34.480 there and foot pressure and um sort of address all the other things as we're as we're going along.00:14:40.399 Tom, you kind of mentioned that you don't you don't really deal with the front squat either. Get the bar in their back. Do you do much front squats in00:14:46.720 training or when you're training others or do you stay away from the front squat for the most part because it's generally00:14:51.760 more specific? Um what what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, in in my world, the front squat00:14:57.040 would be more of an accessory to a squat. um we wouldn't really use it in too many variations. We have so many00:15:02.880 variation bars now these days uh that can help aid with form, especially with like um teenage training or even adult00:15:09.199 training. Um I typically go back squat all the time. I don't even really don't implement the front squat a ton just00:15:14.240 because it's not practical in my world. Right. Yeah. It's interesting how you mentioned the front squat being an00:15:19.680 accessory, right? That's kind of how this this tends to go is you have um weightlifting and then weightlifting00:15:26.160 uses powerlifting as accessory movements to support their weightlifting and then you have powerlifting that uses00:15:32.800 bodybuilding as accessory movements to support their powerlifting goals, right? And so kind of and then bodybuilding is00:15:39.120 I guess just for people who don't like to eat pretty much sucks.00:15:44.880 Yeah. Uh now what about sport? So, you kind of that led right into that as the sport specificity, right? Like in the00:15:51.440 powerlifting world, um the front squat is just an accessory. Um what about if you're training someone who's not00:15:57.040 training to be a powerlifter? Like do you Tom, do you do something different? Like say for example, you know,00:16:02.880 whatever, you know, your mom wants to come learn how to train and lift. Are you going to train her like a powerlifter or are you going to train00:16:09.199 her more like a general athlete? Um, would you maybe use some different movements or would how do you go about00:16:15.519 that with someone who's, you know, call it untrained or not looking for that sport specificity? Yeah, I I mean, exactly. You nailed that00:16:22.480 head. Sport specificity, right? I can't say it, but you can. um if if if it if00:16:27.600 they're not super specific in what they want to do, right? They want general strength, I will implement powerlifting movements, but I'll imple implement00:16:33.920 safer powerlifting movements like a trap bar deadlift as opposed to a conventional deadlift, a Mars bar squat00:16:39.440 or a belt squat until they're strong enough for a regular barbell squat. Um and same thing with bench. I use a00:16:44.800 football bar over a straight bar just because it's not really the best movement to do if you're just trying to, you know, take like my mom take better00:16:51.199 pictures when she's out in nature. Like it just doesn't have a practical application to her. So, it's just more of I will implement those movements, but00:16:57.199 it's more of a controlled environment, not really ever testing strength, but typically only building strength. And we00:17:02.720 will hit those five to eight rep ranges, sometimes a little bit lower, but we'll focus a lot of the reps similar to a00:17:08.160 powerlifting style into the accessories and not so much on those main movements.00:17:13.199 That was a Mars bar. Um, it's best way I could describe as00:17:18.319 like a like a backpack bar. Like it it it goes really low. So, it's a low bar position, but it's like a backpack. So,00:17:25.039 and as opposed to an SSB bar, it doesn't throw you forward and put you under your quads. You're actually able to sit back,00:17:30.480 open up, super comfortable. Especially for like our 14 or 15 year old athletes, it's super comfortable for them to squat instead of here. They can be right here00:17:37.039 like wearing a backpack. You can squat super comfortably and a little bit more safer. Man, I tell I tell you what, they're00:17:43.120 like the safety squat bars. Um I think those that's the opposite of what they00:17:48.160 should be called. It should be a you're going to [ __ ] die in this thing bar is what they named. Yeah.00:17:53.760 Like I've never felt more unsafe than squatting with a safety bar. Yeah. That's why you should do it.00:17:59.919 If you suck at it, you got to start doing it. I don't know. I didn't say I suck at it. I said I'm uncomfortable. You know,00:18:05.520 that's Yeah. That's what I'm uncomfortable. Also, I suck at it. Uh coach Coach Mets,00:18:11.919 working with athletes, I know we we discussed this on another episode. Now, you don't do a ton of back squats. Do00:18:16.960 you use any of these like different bars or is it just kind of stick to goblet squats, front squats? Um we I do know00:18:22.640 that you know you use Wes's favorite tool, the um the trap bar for deadlifts, the hex bars for deadlifts. But as far00:18:29.280 as back squats, like do you have any specific tools you like to use for people because it's either safer or easier to teach or more comfortable or00:18:35.760 anything like that? Um I do like a straight bar. So we don't get super specific into those specialty00:18:41.120 bars. I will use the uh not safety squat bar, I guess we're calling it. Um I00:18:47.840 because of the populations that I work with, like I mentioned before, I work with baseball. I think they're a lot more comfortable in that position with00:18:54.000 the safety squat bar. So, we can actually load it up, put the bar on their back, but they're in a good position and it is a little bit more00:19:00.080 anterior. Um the football bar or like the neutral grip bar for any of the benching patterns just to keep them00:19:05.760 neutral in their positioning. So, I will play around with it, but again, it is I'm at the mercy of the weight rooms00:19:12.559 that I operate in. So, whatever they have is what I'll use. All right. Uh, now we, you know, we00:19:19.280 talked about, you know, a straight bar, these specialty bars. Is there any movement? I mean, we've been talking00:19:24.720 about squats. We can go away from squats real quick for a moment here. Is, uh, like Wes, you said pretty much like,00:19:30.000 let's get the barbell on these on these people's backs. See what happens. Um, is there any any movements you prefer to00:19:37.039 teach with, you know, either a PVC pipe or no weight at all?00:19:43.200 Um, not really. I mean, there without at least some feedback, it's hard to get00:19:50.160 anybody to move good. Like, you put a PVC pipe in my hands, I know exactly what it should look like, but I can't00:19:56.320 produce a good movement, right? So that there's there's very few people that can't grab a 5 kilo bar and learn on00:20:03.919 something like that. And then you know you've got the 15 pounds or in a lot of CrossFit gyms and I think we even have a00:20:11.520 25 and a 35. So um I don't know you can kind of see what kind of person you're00:20:16.799 dealing with and give them a bar that fits and they've got a feedback that you know they can feel something and like I00:20:22.880 said I feel like I can teach them from there. Yeah, it's funny. There's the people00:20:28.799 like to say uh you know, hey look, if you can't do it with no bar or the PVC00:20:34.799 pipe, then you you probably shouldn't do it with the barbell. And that's it's fun. It like seems to make sense and00:20:40.240 it's a fun theory, but in reality, um sometimes positions are just a lot00:20:45.440 easier to get in when you have a little feedback in your hand. You have something to kind of brace against. Yeah. If you've got somebody that's00:20:51.360 already strong, I mean, good luck getting them to make a nice snatch with the PVC pipe. Yeah. Like especially you00:20:57.679 got a you know like a football guy right he's done a lot of bench press wants to learn how to snatch like he probably00:21:03.360 doesn't even have a reasonable overhead squat position with a PVC pipe because he's not going to feel any weight and nowhere to balance it. So yeah. Um well00:21:12.000 okay so talking about snatches a little bit moving to snatches and cleans. Um00:21:17.120 Tom, do you do you teach or really go over with any of your people any sort of uh explosive movement like even you know00:21:24.080 like a power clean or something like that or you stick a lot more towards the you know the powerlifting lifts00:21:29.200 themselves and the accessories thereof? Um I mean we'll do some speed work if that's what you're asking about as far00:21:35.120 as like a snatch queen jerk with a barbell. No, we'll do some dumbbell accessories with it. Uh but we typically don't teach that movement to any of our00:21:41.280 athletes. Do you like doing uh jumping deadlifts with a hexar?00:21:47.120 I've never thought about doing that. No. Wes thinks that's the only thing that Hexar is good for.00:21:53.840 Oh, yeah. Well, all right. Um, so talk about Hey,00:22:02.240 that's basically that's what you said. That was pretty close what you said anyway. Yeah. Something something like the the00:22:07.520 thing. Yeah. Forgive my ignorance. I mean, I kind of agree with you.00:22:16.720 Yeah, Tom, just so you know, it was funny. Wes's entire reasoning. So, why don't you like uh why don't you like hex bars? He said, uh I mean, I feel like a00:22:24.000 barbell does a pretty good job. Well, that's kind of hard. That's a tough That's a tough one to push against, you know. That's00:22:30.640 Yeah, I could debate that for sure. Oh, why do you love a hex bar? I like it because it's more practical um00:22:37.919 for the general population of lifting, right? If you're a super specific athlete, like if I have to deadlift in a competition, not going to be on the trap00:22:43.600 bar for 12 weeks. Probably not going to touch the thing actually. But for kids, adolescence, maybe even some uh adults00:22:49.840 trying to get back in shape, the comfortability of having a a normal grip, I'll call it, and picking something up that's elevated, it has a00:22:56.080 practical, it helps them in their real life. And it's easier for me to teach that than don't get forward while00:23:01.520 deadlifting with a straight bar. and like the technique that goes behind the movement of deadlifting conventionally00:23:07.440 versus a trap bar. It's way easier to learn in the trap bar than in the teens that we see when they do it. You know,00:23:14.159 the the progress is a little bit quicker. So, it kind of gets them excited, makes them want to keep coming back. So, it there is that part of it00:23:19.360 too, but I think it's a great teacher for sure and building uh you can build a lot of strength on a trap bar.00:23:24.960 Uh something that's uh interesting is you mentioned how it gets them excited, keeps them coming back. Um, I also feel00:23:32.640 like that's the only reason why you would want to have people train with chains unless they can already squat00:23:38.799 over double body weight. Uh, you know, I feel like it makes noise and people get real excited about it. And if you're00:23:44.080 like training some high school kids and you want them to get fired up, um, then doing something like that makes sense.00:23:49.200 But as far as loading people up with uh what what what do you call it? What's like the term for it? Like um like00:23:54.799 chains or bands or that type of thing? Um, is there like a term for What was the term for that?00:24:01.039 I don't know. Banded. Banded lifts. There we go. Bands or chains. We usually do bands over chains just because the practicality of hanging a00:24:07.200 band versus hanging all these chains all over the place. Sure. Going storage reasons. So, I kind of feel like if you're not00:24:13.039 squatting at least double body weight. Um, honestly, probably more than that, then you're just it's it's kind of a00:24:18.159 waste of time other than it's fun. Um, again, I mean, Tom, we'll keep going to you with this stuff. As far as like the00:24:24.400 powerlifting world, do you do you like to load people up with um accommodating resistance? That's the term.00:24:31.200 There we go. I was just going to hop in and when you said my name, I was like, it's accommodating resistance.00:24:37.600 Well, Nick, just speak up next time, man. You're going around the world talking on a stage about lifting weights. You should know these. All right.00:24:42.880 Well, I was judging. That's what this is about. So, you're like, are these are these00:24:48.159 [ __ ] going to figure it out? Accommodating resistance. Is there a00:24:53.440 purpose of using that early on or where in the progression as far as someone getting stronger? We'll call we'll stick00:24:59.120 with squat because it's a easy thing to to pick on for here. Someone starts squatting. Okay, we already determined00:25:04.799 you you have them go against the wall and then you put a bar in their back. At what point do you start [ __ ] with accommodating resistance or do you00:25:11.760 really just stick to straight, you know, putting plates on the bar for how long? Kind of what's your progression there?00:25:19.039 Oh, so you we can like if as long as you have somebody has like somewhat of a basis of strength where they come in as00:25:24.640 some kind of athlete which is a general call bottom pyramid of strength. We can throw some bands at them to just kind of00:25:30.000 we kind of base it off where your weakness is and that's kind of where we use the band application. Um we're not really a chain facility. I'm not I mean00:25:36.480 I do agree they sound cool, they look cool, but bands are a little bit more practical. Um, so we do we can do it all00:25:41.760 of a sudden like if they just come in and they kind of know what they're doing, we can throw a light light band00:25:46.799 on them, you know, like maybe 60 pounds at the top, give or take. Maybe00:25:52.400 typically we do 25% of their 1RM in bands in a powerlifting world. So very similar to that in the application of00:25:58.799 like a teenager coming in to do it. But we will throw it in, but it'll be very light. It's not like me where I'm going00:26:04.400 to maybe put I don't know 4 or 500 lb of weight and then 300 lb of bands. Like it's just to00:26:10.320 them it'd be way too much. Like it would be like okay they can squat 200 with a00:26:15.360 25 lb resistant band at the top on each side. So call it 50. Like so we do have some application where we do use that00:26:20.400 from time to time. So relatively early in the in the training with them. If they show us that they can handle it00:26:26.000 then then we'll throw it in very very light again very light bands. Coach Mets, you do any sort of accommodating00:26:32.000 resistance with most the athletes you work with? Do you believe in it? Do you think it's all a bunch of hocus pocus?00:26:37.360 Where you at? Um, I would love to do it. We just don't have chains and I don't trust the bands00:26:43.200 that are in the weight room to do it. Um, I have done it before actually. Fun00:26:48.880 story about me training for Olympic lifting. My former boss at VCU is a00:26:55.679 amazing powerlifter and holds world records as well. And so he programmed for me uh one year going into competing00:27:03.440 for the American Open Finals. And that's all I did was squats with chains and00:27:08.480 bands and all these things. And I was super strong. Like it was an amazing stimulus because I had never done that00:27:15.039 before. Um and I think it was just he was using his powerlifting background to train me as a weightlifter and it was00:27:20.400 great. So I like it. Did you lift more? Um I I did. I felt very strong. Like I00:27:28.720 said, in the past, I've had coaches pull back a lot as we get closer to competing because they want that taper and I have00:27:35.600 felt extremely weak in that taper. Um, so using the accommodating resistance and continuing to push squats and things00:27:42.400 like he did, I felt like I could handle the weight come competition day, which was great.00:27:47.919 Wes, you going to start using chains tomorrow now? Yeah, I like a banded close grip bench. It's00:27:53.039 kind of punchy. We did those in football. I don't know.00:27:58.320 So, they were fun. Um I never had chains in any of the weight rooms I've been in, but they look cool for sure. And they're00:28:05.039 noisy, which like you said is is also cool. Um but uh no, I don't I don't00:28:11.039 know. I don't do do too much of that stuff. You know what? I did I did do uh some banded front squats. I for uh what00:28:18.159 was I working on? I was trying to get a athlete to learn how to balance in his front squat. He always set his hips way00:28:23.919 too far back and then came out with the shitty dog back. Um, so we started00:28:29.600 working on the bands just to like get him to get like pulled into his ankles and learn the stack in the bottom of his00:28:34.960 front squat. But I don't know, just uh for fun or that one specific00:28:40.159 application's my only real experience with them. I haven't really trained any um period00:28:45.760 of time with with bands or chains. We have some chains at the gym and they they sound they sound cool. Uh but uh I00:28:51.600 did have the experience that many people have had which when I went out to uh visit with Louis Simmons one day he00:28:58.320 said, "Oh, you're a weightlifter. You should be power cleaning with bands." And then put some bands around a deadlift bar that was caked in dried00:29:05.440 blood and uh which which was pretty obvious why. I mean it was like the most00:29:11.200 razor type of a bar anyway. And so with this deadlift bar and then he had me max out my power clean and then took the00:29:17.200 bands off and was shocked that I didn't uh immediately PR my clean. Um but it00:29:22.880 was uh I'll tell you what it was an experience because it was all metal plates, you know. It was like it was the00:29:28.320 it was the classic Louis Simmons Westside story, you know. So it was a good time. It was it was definitely an experience. But um anyway, yeah, uh may00:29:37.200 maybe just training some basic squats uh would be a better way to go. Uh now00:29:43.679 I think I I'm gonna guess where Wes is going to go with this one. But talk about the cleans and then pulling things00:29:48.880 off the ground um or just in general uh pulls. You I know uh we discussed this00:29:54.480 last time when it comes to teaching the power like a power clean first or a hang clean. Um prefer to teach from the hang00:30:00.880 position. Is that right? Did I get that right? Yeah. I I start out of the power position. So we we learn top down on our00:30:07.360 weightlifting stuff. Mhm. And then Mets, you do top down primarily stick to the hang with most of00:30:12.399 your athletes. Yeah. Top down approach from the hip down to the ground. Um yeah.00:30:18.640 Now, when you teach someone to deadlift, Tom, do you start with the bar on the00:30:23.919 ground? Um if you're using a traditional barbell, or do you have them stand up with it and then just work the deadlift from the top down as well?00:30:30.559 No, we we use um I mean standard standard 45 pound barbell, but I'll put00:30:35.600 10 pound like you go bumper plates, whatever, just so it's more practical because otherwise they're going so low that you know you're never really going00:30:41.600 to go down that low. So we just put the 10 pounders on, make it 65 and then we start from there. Okay, with back to the cleans, uh the00:30:50.159 I'm curious if you guys have any thoughts or experience with uh the medicine ball clean, the medball clean.00:30:55.760 Uh, is that a legitimate teaching tool and exercise or is that just something they teach at the CrossFit level ones00:31:02.240 because everyone has med balls? Um, Coach Mets, do you ever teach the medball clean?00:31:08.559 Not a day in my life. It's a great exercise. All right, Wes, what what about What about you?00:31:14.080 No, I've I've not really uh taught with the med ball clean. I did in my level one, we did that, but yeah, I never went00:31:22.000 back to it. Yeah. Uh, I I'm not even ask Tom. Tom knows medall.00:31:31.360 Yeah. I uh I've never taught someone how to clean specifically using a medball clean, but it's a great exercise as far00:31:37.760 as just like GPP, you know, like workouts type thing, right? Um so, all00:31:43.120 right. Um Okay. Well, we can we can move on from there. Uh as far as next is00:31:49.600 let's go into the bench press. was you talked a little bit about uh that close grip banded bench press. Feel like00:31:54.880 you're punching somebody. Had a good time with that. Um so, you know,00:32:00.720 some people think that bench is great, some people think it's silly. Simple fact is this is America and so people00:32:07.600 want to bench press. Um plus if you look like anything like someone who works out, people are going to ask. Uh, I00:32:14.559 remember early in my weightlifting, uh, coach Dave Spitz told me, he said, "Welcome to weightlifting, where00:32:20.559 everyone you meet asks you how much you bench, and then after you explain that's not really what you do," they then go on00:32:27.039 to tell you how much they used to bench in high school. And I found I found that to be true00:32:32.480 every time I got in an airplane uh, ever since then. So, that's so accurate.00:32:39.279 What's that? I get asked that all the time. How much do you bench? I don't.00:32:44.799 And then do they tell you how much they used to bench in high school? I think me responding with I don't it00:32:50.799 like shuts it down. Yeah. Um pretty cold. You know, it's just a little intimidating, especially she kind00:32:56.960 of has that, you know. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably what it is. Uh so,00:33:04.399 uh Tom, you're going to teach someone. You're going to start pressing. Do you teach the overhead press first or do you00:33:10.240 teach a horizontal press first? Horizontal. Lay down. Lay straight to it.00:33:16.320 Yeah. All right. Hell yeah. We need to stand up to do this. All right. Um, what about you, Wes?00:33:22.559 You're going to teach someone how to lift weights, how to exercise. You go over strict press first or go straight00:33:27.679 to bench press laying down? Start with the 225 rep max test just to see where they're at. you know, we get a00:33:33.760 a good benchmark and we can always adjust from there. Well, that's a good idea because u if00:33:39.279 you want to prove your system is effective, beating zero is not real tough.00:33:46.559 Um, so do you do you teach the the strict press much or do you even really do you bench much in any of your00:33:51.679 programming or anything for weightlifting or when you're when you're teaching? You even call it gen pop if you're just doing like barbell um you00:33:57.440 know like barbell workouts. Yeah, the I'd say the bench press is a little more00:34:04.000 friendly than the overhead press. You know, a lot of folks don't have the overhead mobility. They have trouble00:34:09.760 reaching up. So, um, starting with the bench press, it probably fits more people and, um, they tend to like that00:34:16.639 better. So, I just I've got a few cues that we use on the bench and, um, kind00:34:22.399 of get everybody set up with those. But, I don't know. This is it's a fairly simple exercise, so I don't I don't00:34:29.918 know. I don't spend a lot of time on it. Tom, is the bench press a fairly simple exercise?00:34:37.679 Unless you're really good at it. That makes a lot of sense to me. You know what I mean? If you need to be00:34:43.359 the best at it, you're gonna like, I need to find 40 tricks so I can bench more, but I don't have to get stronger. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the00:34:49.679 strength helps. there's so much technique that goes into it um that that it can be I yeah I guess I mean I would00:34:55.679 think the simplest exercise is deadlift just because you got to lift it up you know what I mean kind of but the bench can be kind of specific in my00:35:02.240 opinion yeah I I talk about that a lot better you get you have to keep solving harder00:35:07.599 problems and that's not not just technically but also with like how you take care of yourself you know like00:35:13.119 working out's really easy initially you get better no matter what you do but at some point you got to rest00:35:18.160 you got to sleep Um, you got to eat. I don't know. Then you keep figuring00:35:23.599 things out from there. I mean, if that's not the progression to getting strong, I got nothing else for00:35:28.640 you. You know what I mean? Like, you got to eat, you got to sleep, and then you just figure things out from there.00:35:34.079 You solved it. Uh, all right. Co coach Mets, uh, with, uh, with I know, first00:35:39.839 of all, with your athletes, I'm not going to make assumptions. Uh, do you do much bench pressing? If you don't do bench pressing, do you do standing00:35:46.240 strict press? Um, do you lean into dumbbells more? or what what do you do with a lot of the athletes you work with?00:35:52.000 Yeah, I actually utilize bench press um as our main upper body strength movement00:35:57.920 just because there's not really many options that put them in a safe position that you can teach to the high volume of00:36:05.680 athletes. So, we do use it a lot. I don't think that it's super helpful in an athletic setting unless you're a00:36:10.720 certain type of athlete. There's not a lot of transfer to sport. But, um I I like landmine variations a lot. It's a00:36:17.359 lot more shoulder friendly. Um, you don't have to load it up as much and I think that that has a lot more transfer for the population I work with.00:36:25.119 Um, so interesting. So you do a lot more bench press than you do like standing press,00:36:31.760 strict press, anything like that. I wouldn't say necessarily a lot more, but we do use it as like a core strength00:36:37.839 movement and then the accessory work comes from the landmine stuff. So I do like the horizontal push and then kind00:36:44.480 of adding in some of the vertical or close to vertical pressing patterns.00:36:50.640 Um what do you think that so kind of seems like Wes you mentioned that you00:36:56.960 know you like you like the bench because a lot of people maybe struggle with overhead position with the strict press,00:37:03.280 right? Maybe it's more difficult to get in that overhead position. Um Tom likes the bench because you get to lay down00:37:08.560 which seems like a a positive thing. Um, and so do do we think are we I guess00:37:14.800 depends on the population you're training here, but are we just all avoiding challenging people to improve00:37:20.800 their overhead pos their overhead position and mobility?00:37:27.680 Uh, well, if you want them to have fun first, um,00:37:34.880 yeah, you want people train and see where they're weak, you know, you can start with the overhead. But, uh, yeah, if you want them to have00:37:41.680 a little fun and have something to tell their friends about, um, getting a 10000:37:46.960 pound bench press up real quick, hit the triple digits, and now they got something to tell their buddies.00:37:53.760 Uh, so Tom, talking about uh, bench in general, you know, like you said, you00:37:58.880 know, being strong definitely helps and as you get better, you need need more tricks. What's the most underrated thing00:38:04.880 to teach in the bench press? Uh, I probably toss between two would be00:38:11.040 pulling the bar apart and pulling the bar down, not just let the weight down.00:38:16.880 So, a lot of people drop it and then heave it or they just don't have control. So, I teach to rip apart and I00:38:22.160 I'm like I I teach everybody like your arms are springs and we're loading springs. We don't drop weight on00:38:27.200 springs. We load them controllably. So, pull the bar down before you press it up. I think that helps lock in a lot of00:38:32.320 especially newer benches. Um, so you mentioned like pulling the bar apart. Um, do you do that? How do you feel00:38:39.200 about the teaching of like telling people to like try to like bend the bar, you know what I mean? Like an old timey strong man.00:38:44.640 Yeah. Yeah. Similar if they're having elbow issues, right? If they're flaring and they're like benching like this, you00:38:49.760 know, um, then it's like more of having your touch your elbows on the way up, which is impossible, you know, like00:38:56.160 can't do that. So that helps them kind of lock that in. Again, with pulling the bar down should should involve the lats.00:39:02.560 and it should stop the transfer from off the chest up with elbow flare, but if it doesn't, um, the cue of pushing elbows00:39:09.119 in, it helps as well. Um, so, Coach Mets, what's the number one thing that you hear yourself saying00:39:15.040 over and over again to kids in the weight room when they bench press? Um, keep your feet on the floor. It's a00:39:22.240 whole body. I always teach them, I'm like, it's a whole body exercise. It's not just upper body. Um, and so I find00:39:27.839 that when actually, you know, when athletes struggle on bench, for some reason they want to pick a foot up00:39:33.520 because they think it helps, it actually you lose all your leverage and then you end up failing that lift. So, um, keep00:39:40.960 your feet down is probably the thing I say the most to them. Uh, so yeah, I think that's probably a a00:39:47.920 pretty important thing. It's I'm I'm relatively I've been convinced for a while that the most important thing with bench press is just learning to make00:39:54.160 your body one solid piece, right? Um seems like people try to they think it's this big upper body exercise or a chest00:40:00.960 exercise. Um it's like no man, if you're driving your feet through the ground and you're tight in your midline and you're00:40:07.680 you should be trying to push the bar up using your lats, if you can kind of like figure out how to once you kind of figure out what that feels like, you00:40:13.599 know. Um, and then it's a it's a whole lot more. Like I actually felt in my chest probably less than everywhere else00:40:18.800 in my body. So, um, Wes, do you wish that you were able to bench press more00:40:24.079 in your training? Is that your biggest regret of choosing weightlifting over another sport is that you don't get a bench as often as you like?00:40:30.320 I do like to bench press. When I thought I was done weightlifting, I I started00:40:35.359 doing it again. So, I I do like the exercise for sure. But now that you're training for weightlifting again, you're you're no00:40:41.599 longer bench pressing. No, no, unfortunately not.00:40:46.800 It's the saddest I've ever seen you. Really bummed about that. Oh, man.00:40:52.960 Um, how much do you deadlift or just clean pulls, Wes? Uh, most clean pulls usually. I rarely00:41:01.200 deadlift. All right. Uh, yeah, that's what I assumed. Just like just checking, you00:41:07.040 know. Um, all right. Uh, so your mom your mom's going to come in and she's00:41:12.240 going to she's going to start working out. All right. It's day one. Day one. Um, you can each choose your individual00:41:18.079 moms if you want or we can all just do Wes's mom. We're all going to do Wes's mom. Yeah, we can all do Wes's mom. You heard00:41:24.240 me. I don't even know the guy. Mow his lawn.00:41:30.560 First he said, "I don't even know the guy." I thought you were talking about his mom. And I was like, that's disrespectful.00:41:35.599 But now you meant Okay. Uh, so Wes, you go first. Your mom's coming in. She wants to start working out. Wants to00:41:40.640 lift some weights. Um, what do you do with her on day one?00:41:45.839 Day one, I like to I like to learn to squat and I like to learn to bench. Um, it's pretty easy day one with pretty00:41:52.960 much anybody. So, we get to push on both sides of our body. Yeah. It's ignore the entire backside of00:41:59.440 the human being. Yeah. Want to do the show muscles.00:42:06.000 That's right. That's right. There we go. Yeah, she's not like training to compete in wrestling. You know what I mean?00:42:12.000 Like, let's get let's get her looking good from the in the mirror. That's what we're talking about. Um, Coach Mets, day00:42:18.240 one, you've never worked with this person before in their life. They're walking in. What do you do with this person?00:42:24.800 It could be it could be somebody like a mother or it could be for, you know, whatever. It could be a it could be a kid. It could be an athlete. Um, let's00:42:31.040 say this actually for you. Let's go the other way if you'd like. Um, we could say, okay, that's a uh I know you work00:42:36.560 with college athletes primarily, but let's put it this way. Okay, my I got a 12-year-old. I got a 12-y old daughter.00:42:41.839 Um, she's a pretty good athlete, pretty whatever, but like you've never worked there. Um, let's just say she's never00:42:48.400 been in a weight room before in her life. Um, what are you doing with this person day one to get them ready to uh00:42:54.079 ready to lift some weights, ready to move, ready to get strong? Yeah, we're going to just roll through a warmup, see00:42:59.760 how they move in the warmup, and then I'm just going to do some foundational patterns. So, we'll just squat, we'll00:43:05.440 push, we'll probably do some split squat variations, do some stuff on the ground with them as far as like posterior chain00:43:12.800 work, and then since they're a kid, um I'll probably will try to do something fun with them at the end of the session00:43:19.520 just so that they feel like they enjoyed it and they got to play a game. Um, but I'll keep it really simple and just00:43:26.560 foundational movement patterns. Dodgeball. Yeah,00:43:32.000 oneon one. Actually, I used to train uh Yeah, one-on-one. Exactly.00:43:37.119 That will annihilate a child. Um, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Otherwise, how do they00:43:42.640 learn? Um, I used to I used to do speed sessions with this kid. He was 12, 1300:43:48.079 years old and we um had a turf that had a basketball hoop and I wanted him to be reactive. So what I would do is I would00:43:54.079 drop the basketball and he would run to the basketball and he'd have to shoot the hoop. So just like things that get00:43:59.760 what you want out of it but also are fun for them. I try to incorporate.00:44:05.599 Yeah. Um, well, I'm not gonna My daughter's playing seventh grade basketball right now, and seventh grade,00:44:13.119 junior high girls basketball is an experience. We'll just put it that way.00:44:18.720 There's a there's one girl on the team that's just as girl is just a bucket. Like, she scored 39 points in one game.00:44:24.960 And I was like, at any level, 39 points is legit. Let alone four seven minute00:44:30.400 periods, whatever. There is. Anyway, dude, it's uh but the score also is 43 to uh like three and it's like at what00:44:37.440 point are we going to take this girl out? There's there's there's like levels to this whole situation. Anyway, uh it00:44:43.920 was not my daughter. She's terrible. But she's having a good time. She's learning. I really thought you were saying a she's00:44:49.760 a bucket. Like that's her body shape and I thought we were making fun of 12y olds on.00:44:55.920 Yeah. No, this girl can score the ball, but she needs strength conditioning, man. I mean, I don't think her parents00:45:02.640 listen this, but she's just soft. Like, she's soft on defense, dude. If like all you got to do is just grab the ball, you00:45:08.640 can take it out of her hands. Like, she's like doesn't have like the like that like killer instinct or just like that aggression or she doesn't know how00:45:15.040 to like ah, you know, but she can score that damn ball. That's for sure. um all00:45:20.880 the time. I'm like, "Maddie, dude, if you just like you start like push her, like just walk up and push her. Like get her like get this like uh get this fire00:45:28.000 going. You know what I mean? Like figure this out, dude. Like just after practice, stick around. You two just wrestle for a little bit. Like get some00:45:33.520 of that like killer instinct in her and like this is how you can help the team because it's not going to be on the00:45:38.560 court. So So you're en encouraging your kid to bully her teammates?" I'm encouraging my daughter to know00:45:45.599 herself. Socrates, know thyself. Like look dude, like you know that the only way you're going to help this team is00:45:51.040 being not on the court during the game. And so what you can do is you can like00:45:57.359 be stronger than this girl and bully her, push her around. Yeah, we want to win county. I mean00:46:05.520 that's right. That's right. Uh Tom, you got someone in the weight room very first day. Um you're going to00:46:11.599 do some air squats against the wall and then what else you can do with them? Um I like single leg movements. uh kind00:46:17.680 of see how their stability is. Um and then a couple maybe controlled movements on uh machine loaded uh implements and00:46:24.640 then I kind of probably put them right into a squat, right into a deadlift, trap bar probably Mars bar squat, uh00:46:30.079 maybe a box squat lightly. Um and then just kind of see where their weaknesses are and address them.00:46:35.200 You mentioned uh like a like some strength machines like what are you doing? What do you what do you have? I mean like uh like a controlled00:46:40.640 machine, right? Like so what do you like a leg extension, a machine press? like just so it's it's less free motion and I can kind of pick apart their weaknesses00:46:46.960 based on that versus okay that really hurts and it's a dumbbell over my head all of a sudden like I don't want to00:46:52.560 depending on the athlete I don't want to throw too much at them so I want to see what their weaknesses are before I can kind of push them and the machines help00:46:57.680 with that. All right, there we go. Um that's interesting. I don't spend a lot of time00:47:02.800 with machines and so I was kind of curious about you know like what what specifically you think would be beneficial to someone on that first day00:47:09.359 early on. Yeah, it's just I just like to see, you know, it just gives us kind of a basis of strength without scaring the athlete.00:47:14.960 You know, if some of them, you know, you think going to dumb bench press some dumbbells is like a simple thing. You put them on your knees, you throw them00:47:20.960 up and you bench them and then you throw them back down your knees and they're like going like this and dropping the weights back here and I'm like, you're00:47:26.079 going to rip well, I would rip my shoulder, you probably won't rip yours, but then you're like trying to like hone in on fundamental technique. I'm on a00:47:32.480 dumbbell bench press. I'm like, all right, we got to get through some more things, you know, as like a first assessment. So, that's why kind of the machines help a little bit. How00:47:38.640 different would it look if it was call it a uh just like a general population like some dude that's 30 years old00:47:45.440 compared to if it's someone who's over the age of 50 compared to if it's you know whatever like a teenager. Would you00:47:51.359 be do that much different or would it kind of be similar with that person? Um it'd probably be a little bit more00:47:56.800 little different for the teenager. As you get into like the 50-year-old uh we kind of focus more on like full body strength. So the workouts are all00:48:02.880 tailored to full body because they're just they're generally they're not that specific because they're typically00:48:07.920 probably not athletes at that age. Um so then it would be kind of more of just we actually have a couple that just signed00:48:14.400 up with us for some training and it's more of just like more machines. Can you sit up off a bench? Okay, we're going to00:48:20.640 squat but it's going to be a bodyweight squat to a high bench. So it's like okay you kind of have to know the lack of00:48:26.000 better words the athlete that you're going to work with whether they are an athlete or not an athlete and then what's going to be practical them you00:48:31.440 know to move them forward and what they want to look like or or be like in the future whether an athlete or just hey I want to not be tired when I'm painting00:48:38.160 like okay yeah um coach Mets you do are you does00:48:43.359 your first day look very different if you have how how based on you know the population or is it kind of all right00:48:49.119 I've never seen this person exercise before you're going to go over the same Uh, I think it would be a little00:48:54.960 different. I agree with Tom. Like a younger athlete is probably going to have a more specific reason why they're00:49:00.400 coming in to see you, like they probably want to get better at basketball or soccer or baseball or whatever their00:49:05.760 sport is. When you gave this scenario and I'm picturing my mom, what would I do with her? Very different. We're not00:49:12.480 playing reactive basketball sprints at the end of Your mom's not allowed to have fun. Uh, no. None. Uh, she's a fun soccer.00:49:21.200 Um, no. Uh, I would do something very different because again, the goal for00:49:26.640 someone that's older might just be, hey, I just want to be able to do activities of daily living versus the kid that's00:49:32.800 like, I want to get better at my sport. So, I would tailor it slightly. Um, still very foundational movements, but00:49:39.520 progressions might look different. Day one, what what do you do with your mom day one?00:49:45.200 Oh, yeah. So, that's where we would um I don't know how well she is as a mover.00:49:52.240 So, I would probably have to assess that a lot more and just kind of get a movement screen on her more so than00:49:57.680 loading her up with weight. I would probably do some type of squatting pattern, but I'd hold off on some single00:50:03.280 leg stuff right away. I'd hold off on some tougher upper body pressing, like maybe we would do something, you know,00:50:09.119 like an elevated push-up versus a regular standardized push-up, something like that. I would probably put her on00:50:15.280 the ground a lot for movements. Um, just so she's not moving around a ton. Um,00:50:21.040 putting her in just safe positions. Um, and then progressing from there.00:50:26.559 All right. So, here we go. We'll go through this rapid fire a little bit quicker here. Not too much about these, but Sarah did. What would you do with00:50:32.800 your mom in her first day of training? Wes, what about your mother-in-law? What do you do differently?00:50:40.480 Oh, we're gonna do some cardio. There. There we go. All right. What is a00:50:45.920 movement you would absolutely not teach to a 10-year-old in the weight room?00:50:56.800 Coach Mets, you go first.00:51:01.920 Can I go second? Sure. Sure. Tom, what about you? What00:51:08.800 would you what movement would you not teach to a kid in the weight room? Easy Olympic lifting.00:51:15.040 No, because I don't know how to do it. Probably not teach those things. Yeah,00:51:20.400 that's probably the best answer. Yeah. Uh, okay. Coach Mets, I uh I probably wouldn't teach like00:51:27.839 sorry to CrossFit, but CrossFit style stuff like butterfly pull-ups or things like that that's just going to tear them00:51:34.480 up as a kid. Yeah. I mean, I honestly I'm not sure that anybody should um teach butterfly00:51:42.880 pull-ups to anybody unless they are like really strong in standard pull-ups and if they have some desire to compete in00:51:49.680 CrossFit or something like that, right? Standard kipping pull-ups, very good, very healthy for shoulders, gymnastics, kips, very good. Uh but you get into00:51:56.720 like some of that like butterfly pull-up stuff, definitely not necessary. I agree. All right, Wes, what about you? What are you not teaching to a kid in00:52:02.960 the weight room? talking about painting earlier. Is this kid finger paint or does he use a brush?00:52:09.760 We'll say fingers. We'll go finger painting here. Oh, he's gonna he's a strong baby. I mean, we might think about powerlifting.00:52:17.680 He's he's probably strong.00:52:24.640 I think you're I think you're probably right. So, based on what uh painting implement, you can you can uh make some00:52:30.720 assumptions about their physical abilities. I think so. Yeah, that's hard. That's hard. Aerosol.00:52:38.319 Yeah, that's primarily spray paint. Well, you got a real smart kind of nerdy guy, you know. I don't Right now, I feel00:52:43.760 like everybody that weightlifts in my gym is an engineer or a scientist of some sort. So, I don't know. If you got00:52:50.160 you got a creative person, they might they might like the weightlifting a little better.00:52:55.440 All right. Sounds good. All right. Well, that's a wrap for episode six of Not in00:53:00.640 My Box. Huge thanks to Wes, Coach Mets, and Tom for joining me today. If you00:53:06.400 overestimated the benefits of bench press, congratulations. You're one of us. Uh, go grab some coffee from00:53:12.480 caffeine and kilos.com. Check out Coach Mets for your athletic training tips. Visit the Be Better brand for coaching00:53:19.599 from Tom if you prefer to keep the weights below your head and follow Wes Kits if you're interested in putting the00:53:25.760 weights over your head. I share this with a coach who still teaches the clean from the floor on day one. They need00:53:32.640 this more than anyone. And remember, if your lift looked pretty, it probably wasn't heavy enough.00:53:40.319 All right. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you, Danny. Yeah, Tom, thanks for joining us.00:53:45.680 Yeah, appreciate you having Coach Mets. Good seeing you guys. You too. I feel like I need to get a mic00:53:52.160 set up like you guys. Yeah, I mean, well, I don't know. Wes is going thick boy on the couch. So, I feel like whatever you want to00:54:00.480 But I mean it look here's the thing. Mine's it's not even on. It just looks good. It's like a00:54:05.760 No, it's not. It is. I'm just kidding. Aesthetics secrets.00:54:10.800 All right. I'll see you guys. All right. Thanks, guys.